Ep. 6 - Honoring and Advocating for Women Veterans. Lisa Browne-Banic, Women Veteran's Advocate, Talks About Her Experiences And What's Needed.

My conversation this week is with Lisa Browne- Banic. As Lisa walks us through her incredible life's journey, you'll feel the gravity of her mission and the weight of her achievements. This episode is an intimate exploration of the trials and triumphs faced by women who have served, seen through the eyes of someone who has been on the front lines of change. From her early days fueled by a desire for independence to her service in the Signal Corps, Lisa's tale is one of resilience and dedication, shedding light on the profound struggles and successes of women in the military.

Prepare to be moved and motivated as we delve into the critical world of advocacy and support for our female service members. We address the stark reality of suicide rates among women veterans, the importance of recognizing the diverse contributions made by women in uniform, and the organizations tirelessly working to provide much-needed support. As an advocate, Lisa doesn't just tell us about the challenges; she's on the ground, making a difference. This episode is a heartfelt tribute to all women veterans and a rallying cry for increased awareness and action. It's more than a moment to honor their service; it's a call to stand with them, shoulder to shoulder, as they transition back into civilian life.

Transcript

Scott McLean: 0:22

Welcome to the podcast. I'm Scott McLean. My guest this week is Lisa Brown Bannock. Lisa wears a lot of hats, and a number of those hats are in the veteran space. One hat in particular is women veterans. About eight months ago, that's when I first met her and we had a conversation. It was a brief conversation. The information she was giving me and her passion for women veterans just really stuck with me, and so I finally got to get her on, and with that, let me bring her on. Hey, lisa.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 1:00

Hi Scott. Thank you for having me, this is fun. You for having me, this is fun.

Scott McLean: 1:05

Oh, the pleasure is mine. Like I said, it was a short conversation and I mean it when I say when we were talking. I'm listening to you and I had zero idea of this and I served for 10 years. Okay, and since that conversation and I'm not making this up Since that conversation I really started to take a little stock in my time in the military and all the active duty women that I worked with and I was in security police, I was canine and hey, listen they.

Scott McLean: 1:34

I looked at them just like you look at anybody else.

Scott McLean: 1:38

She's right next to me, she's got a gun, I have a gun, she has a dog, I have a dog and I never really and I don't know how many do like take a step back and say this is a woman, right, one girl in particular stands out. So I was a canine handler, security police, and I was stationed in Northern California and this young girl came in and she's a dog handler and there's not many female dog handlers in the military and she was really really doing her best to fit in, and almost too much to try to fit in, to the point where I think at one point she was chewing tobacco and just kind of being one of the guys and I was a little older, it was my second base and one night we were working together and I pulled her aside and I said listen, you don't have to do that, you don't. You don't have to do that. I recommend you just be yourself, don't let these, these other airmen, influence you. Don't feel like you have to impress them.

Scott McLean: 2:51

And I had that conversation with her. It didn't work. Didn't work because, well, peer pressure rules all in those situations. So I never forgot that. But then when I get out, I never really thought that their struggle is different than mine, until I met you.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 3:09

Oh my.

Scott McLean: 3:11

I'm serious, I never really took stock in what they go through. There's this little tick in the back of my head saying you got to try it. Maybe you might want to start trying to help women veterans. And enough about me. So, lisa, tell us a little about you.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 3:28

Well, I'm one of similar to many veterans, both men and women, I wanted to see the world, get away from my family, love my family, but I was the big sister from a big family, so I wanted to unhinge that responsibility and go explore and see what my God-given skills and interests were and worry about the finance of it. So I actually went through ROTC scholarship and then entered the military on the reserve side and, by the way, for all of those reservists and weekend warriors that are out there, we all needed to know in 36 and a half days or so what active duty full timers needed to know 365 days a year. So kudos to us. So I qualified for Army Intelligence, but there was such a waiting list at the time that I was entering that I didn't want to wait any longer. So I took my second choice, second qualification, which was Signal Core, and that was really awesome. And now I'm outdating myself because everything I learned is not used today. Everything is so much more advanced. It's all the technology and communication devices.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 4:43

And in fact I worked with teams. This was over in Washington State National Guard. I actually had a lot of Microsoft men, because they were all men at the time. Actually I was their leader and I had a team of Microsoft employees. For the most part Some of them were not, but they were brilliant and it was my responsibility as their team leader to make sure they had the resources they needed to. What we said was set up AT&T in the middle of nowhere. Now, interestingly, we also worked satellite communications, and anything above the atmosphere is no longer in the Army or in the Air Force for that matter, it's in Space Force, which is a real thing, right? So I'm really dating myself, because we did work satellite communications and set up phone communications in the middle of nowhere and it was real fun as the team leader, to be the timer ready, set, go and see how fast they could set it up, or lift and shift, as we say, to pretend like we needed to get out of a combat area and relocate all the communications stuff all the communications stuff.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 5:50

So during that time, I actually had studied journalism in college and was working in various capacities because I was in the reserves and in the National Guard. I had a full-time job doing advertising, marketing and whatnot that as the years went by, I thought why don't I get that same skill set qualified in the military because I'm already doing it on the outside. So I became a public affairs officer and my last assignment was actually a five-year active duty, full-time assignment in United States Southern Command in West Miami and I worked as a public affairs officer under now retired Marine General John Kelly, and that was a fascinating experience. It was my first real experience working joint operations because we had everybody. It was a command center with a five-star general officer. We had everybody there Navy, army, air Force, cia, fbi, usaid and so on and so forth. So that was really great.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 6:50

So then that ended my military career and just through some of the contacts I had over the years, I was asked to teach as an adjunct professor and I received a lot of great feedback and encouragement and so I asked to teach more than just the one class a semester and the dean of the college said, well, that's nice, we like you too, but you're not really allowed to teach anymore. And I said why not? Because you need a graduate degree. So that's where I am. Now I'm starting my dissertation for my PhD so that I could teach and research full-time. And, unbeknownst to me, at the time when I was invited to teach part-time, I was already doing unofficial research, because I realized I'm nothing without my team.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 7:39

I grew up in a big family. They were my team. I was in the Army Reserves National Guard. They were my team, and now my family, my siblings, have their own families. I'm the renegade. I'm all the way on the other side of the country from them. I just felt like I didn't have a team anymore.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 7:55

So I actually did the opposite of what you said. I went exploring who's working with veterans, who's working with military, who's out there, who's out there? And I just started discovering all kinds of great organizations that were making efforts to socially, emotionally, physically be there for veterans, and I joined them. I joined, on the national level, the Service Women's Action Network, which acronym is SWAN, and a lot of people don't know this, but today, now, every government, us government building, including the embassies around the world, in addition to having to have a woman's restroom, they need to have a nursing room, and I remember sitting on the toilet trying to feed my baby girl when I was on duty. And you, men, you don't have to think about that, no, you'll never experience it. No, you don't have to think about that, you'll never experience it.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 8:51

And thanks to SWAN, who's a huge lobbying research entity, service Women's Action Network. They have been very involved in passing legislation like that. They also passed legislation so there was equity of the spouses who were men to women veterans that they were receiving the benefits across the board. So that it was equitable, whether or not you were a woman veteran or a man veteran, that your spouse was getting the benefits due to them. And they're still involved in a lot of research and legislation at the national level, at the state level, through a lot of these contacts I made in veteran organizations and speaking engagements that I've been invited to involved with. I was invited last year to be on the Women's Advisory Board for the State of Florida's Veteran, the FDBA, the Florida Department of Veteran Affairs, fdba. So we meet quarterly and our purpose is to permeate all of the state of Florida, make sure number one, women veterans know that they're veterans because studies have shown that many of us and I was one of them I was one of them when I was done with my duty in 2016.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 10:01

I didn't know that I was a veteran because I was never in a combat zone, that I was a veteran because I was never in a combat zone. So I thought well, I'm not a veteran, therefore I don't have those benefits and I'm not even going to bother because I don't qualify. And come to find out. Of course you qualify if you've served in uniform, if you've worn the uniform for a minimal amount of time.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 10:22

Because the truth of the matter, going back to my little mantra, I am nothing without my team is if we don't work as a team, men and women, in whatever our roles or ranks or responsibilities, the mission doesn't get done. So it's not just who's in the combat zone, but who supports that combat zone. And in order to be successful in whatever mission we're working on in or outside of the combat zone, we have to work together. And we're all veterans, having served them, having worn the uniform. I'm trying to emphasize that In our studies we also have found that when we do a survey, have you served? There's a tendency to say no. But if we wore it, have you worn the United States Armed Forces uniform?

Scott McLean: 11:06

And then the second question well, from what time to what time, and then you qualify as a veteran. So so that's, that's an interesting point and I've heard that and I've only heard that recently. I've heard that type of thought process. But they're a cog in the machine, absolutely, they are part of the machine. You need people like that to make my job as a security policeman or whatever, functional and work. And I break it down to the basics If you raised your hand and you took an oath and you wore a uniform, then you served. But that's interesting with that, well, I wasn't in battle so I didn't really serve. That's an interesting thought process that again, this is starting to come up a lot in conversations I'm having with other veterans and things that people don't even think about. Right, if they told somebody on the street yeah, I was in the Air Force, well, we assume that you serve like you serve, but they don't.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 12:13

And I'll even go a step further, Scott.

Scott McLean: 12:15

Yes.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 12:16

Some people you were in the Air Force. Oh, what did you fly? You know what? That's a very, very small percentage of the Air Force. Everybody's important, everybody's important, everybody's important. Yes, and I think the biggest problem is when a person says well, you know, I do this, and they puff up with pride Well, you couldn't do it without the team.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 12:43

That's right, they puff up with pride Well, you couldn't do it without the team, so one of the things that I say is it doesn't matter man or woman, support role or combat role, pilot or engineer, cook or lawyer, we all have to work together and we all matter. And I think the problem really comes down to the root of when somebody has attitude.

Scott McLean: 13:05

Yeah.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 13:07

Now the attitude happens to affect women more, because women are the smallest number around and usually the only and, by the way, I do need to say you mentioned she's a girl.

Scott McLean: 13:21

I know.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 13:22

She's a woman. She's a woman, she was a girl at the time she was like 18. No, she's a woman and I look at her now looking back. Okay, I'm an older man, oh.

Scott McLean: 13:32

I am not going to you win, you win. I am not going to justify or try to justify.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 13:40

I'm being playful with you, but the reason we're talking is for the awareness and I think things just happen and people forget. When you say man and the next sentence you say girl, you're already putting us less than.

Scott McLean: 13:53

That's 100% correct. And we had a little discussion before we came on about Women's Veterans Day, fema, and I said I don't want to mess that up. And then I go and say that but you're right, and I thank you for that't want to mess that up. And then I go and say that but you're right, and I thank you for that. I thank you for that.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 14:13

I will carry that with me, like I carry the other stuff you said with me. Well, and you've heard me say this, and we all need to respect one another as teammates, as coworkers.

Scott McLean: 14:21

When did you really start jumping full boat into your advocacy for women veterans? Did you go from you know this place to this place and you learn and you see, because you're a learner. You're one of those people who just like to learn.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 14:35

Yes, lifelong learning yes, and I don't think you're done.

Scott McLean: 14:41

You're a PhD candidate, I mean you're not done. And that rigor, that rigor is something else. We'll talk another time about that.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 14:50

When did I start being an advocate? From the moment I got in in ROTC. I didn't realize it at the time, but I did. I remember we would go two mornings a week on, you know, for our rock or our run and I felt like I had to prove myself. And I know your story earlier was you don't have to do that. Well, guess what From a woman's point of view? Yeah, you do.

Scott McLean: 15:20

And that's why it didn't work. That's why I said it didn't. She kept.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 15:24

You do, because if you don't, you don't get recognized, you don't get credit.

Scott McLean: 15:29

Respect.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 15:31

There was a male they call him a training officer and I remember that I was giving my team credit which is the right thing to do, for some project we did in training in the reserves, and he pulled me to the side and he said that's great, you give your team credit, but you have to remind people that you led them and I didn't do that. I didn't do that. It was hard for me to do that and maybe that's just my personality. I'm not going to say all women are like that. I'm just going to say I think that was my personality, but it was good of him to teach me how to give myself credit and to ensure that I am getting credit. It's hard to say you know what's going on here, it's because it was my idea, because that opens you up for critique and whatnot. So I feel I can empathize with that other woman who didn't take your advice when you said you have to do that because, frankly, you don't know.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 16:29

I will say that this is going to be hard to admit that over the years, because I spent almost 20 years in the military, that many, many times I was the only woman or I was just one of two, but when we were doing physical things I was really in good shape. I was quite the sports person and I found that in having that experience of if I didn't outdo, outdo, outdo, then I wasn't good enough. I have to say, 99% of us women deal with that, especially in this kind of industry. But what happened was I overdid it. Now, when I was in, the equipment didn't fit me right because it was made for men's bodies. We have different framework. I really injured my back. So I've had back surgery because of the wear and tear and the maladjustment of the equipment that I would carry around even just going on weekly rec marches. Thankfully, equipment now is being designed for our frames so that we don't injure ourselves over the years and have somebody end up like me and I'm thankful that it's not any worse than it is.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 17:45

So these are things that would not be obvious to somebody like you because the equipment fit you Well. And then you want to talk about the women who were the minorities of the minorities. You probably heard of the Army's 6888 Central Postal Battalion. You know they were back in the 1940s and there was a movie about them recently All Black Women and they were assigned to England during World War II and their mission was to clear years of backlog mail in the European theater. They worked in dark, rat-infested hangars with broken windows.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 18:24

I mean it was an awful place to work, but what they did was they improved the morale, and it was mostly men who were on the front lines. Right, they improved the morale because they were able to connect people with the communication from their loved ones. Now, what does that have to do with combat? Frankly, it has everything to do with everything.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 18:47

Because if you cannot stay connected with your purpose and the people you love, I mean, that's why fast forward. Today we have a lot of suicide issues. So I bring that up because I think everybody needs to be reminded reminded from a woman's point of view. We need to be reminded that we are part of the team and we matter and we're not better or worse than somebody who's in combat or who's on another part of the team, with a different rank or a different role or responsibility. We matter, we're all part of a team and I think the gentlemen need to remember that we are part of a team and in order to truly be successful in our missions, we all have to work together and we have to respect our differences, whether it's a role or rank or responsibility or race. We all contribute in different ways and that's the only way that we're going to win.

Scott McLean: 19:46

Yeah, now you mentioned something Is the percentage of women veteran suicide? Is that high? Is it going up? Do you know?

Lisa Browne-Banic: 20:08

you know, recent studies just in the last couple of years have shown that the suicide rates of women veterans is increasing faster than the suicide rates of male veterans. Now, it's not the sheer volume of number, because women are a very small number of the entire population of veterans and military. However, the ratio of women veterans' suicide rates is growing faster than male suicide rates.

Scott McLean: 20:33

Suicide. So I have a stat here Female veterans are 250% more likely to die by suicide than civilian women.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 20:43

Yeah, that's pretty grim.

Scott McLean: 20:45

Yeah, that's a large number.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 20:48

Now it's an issue, and I always like to do this. It's an issue for all, men and women.

Scott McLean: 20:53

All men and women Suicide, veteran suicide.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 20:57

Yes, it shouldn't even be. There's 22 a day, but it's actually 44 a day because the 22 a day does not include suicide instigated by alcoholism, drug use, negative factors that are part of reality. The 22 a day are the raw numbers of somebody actually physically maiming themselves, killing themselves.

Scott McLean: 21:26

Yeah.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 21:27

The 44 a day encompass the bigger picture of you know somebody who was became an addict or um was careless or what have you because of, of the suicide ideations that are happening.

Scott McLean: 21:44

Yes, yes, homelessness. I think when we talked and correct me if I'm wrong I believe you said to me and I think this is one of the, this is the stat that and again, please correct me if I'm wrong that you said the largest growing demographic of homelessness in the United States is female veterans.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 22:06

Yes, yes, and that's, according to the US Department of Housing and Urban Development, in 2020.

Scott McLean: 22:13

Now I know some of the reasons.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 22:16

Let me just throw one more number out.

Scott McLean: 22:18

No, hey, listen 2020-2023 by 4.5%.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 22:33

However, in that same time period, the homelessness among women veterans increased by almost 24%. So, even though veterans at large, the homelessness issue, decreased by 4.5% in the three years 2020 to 2023, in those same three years, homelessness among women veterans increased by almost 24%. And here's the factors that contribute to that Trauma. There's a connection Studies have shown between women veteran homelessness and trauma Military sexual assault. They had that experience and they say it's four out of five. I would beg to differ that it's more, as many of us don't report it. I never reported it. Intimate partner violence, poverty and single parenthood.

Scott McLean: 23:24

It says housing is a large expense for anyone, but studies show that women are more likely than men to be at risk of poverty. That's an unbelievable stat. I don't know what the details are that go into that, but this is some heavy stuff.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 23:44

Where we live here in Florida. You know this is a very expensive place to live and I'm not going to use anybody's name. But I talked to my social worker at the VA because I'm basically a poor college student working on my PhD and if it wasn't for my landlord, out of the graciousness of their heart, they're giving me a deal from my daughter and me. I'm a single mother. So my social worker at the VA said if you didn't have this opportunity and these kind people my landlords the advisement he was going to give me is move out of the county. The county is just way too expensive. You're just digging a hole. You're just getting yourself deeper and deeper into debt. And I asked him is that what you're telling veterans who can't afford their bills, even with the benefits of the mortgage loan and the other benefits that many veterans are entitled to? It's very expensive, and this is not the only county or region that is very expensive. I was talking with another veteran who is a realtor and he and I are trying to put together some lobbying information for the state of Florida to figure out. You know people come and pay cash for homes. I'm not talking ritzy either. I just mean many of us veterans don't have an opportunity to even use the VA loan or figure out a payment plan because somebody slaps cash down and we can't afford to do that. We can't afford to live here and again, I'm not talking about a ritzy neighborhood, I just mean, you know, even lower middle class. That all contributes to the homelessness issue.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 25:29

And I want to segue, because there was a study done by Wounded Warrior Project in 2021 on how to help women veterans transition Mentoring and networking, peer support, child care. Like I told you, I sat on a toilet breastfeeding my daughter and you know you can't walk into an interview, although now some people are like, oh, just have the baby play on the floor. And so Wounded Warrior Project 2021 report had these foundings that what women veterans need the most help with as they transition into the civilian world is mentoring and networking, which I provide both professionally and just personally to colleagues and friends, both professionally and just personally to colleagues and friends. Peer support, child care, an environment that is safe and not re-traumatizing, access to resources and then teaching. It says resilience and what I think it means is we learn resilience in the military. We have to learn resilience under a different kind of way in in the civilian world. So those are the things that the 2021 Wounded Warrior Project and, I hope, a lot of men who are listening again we we, men and women are not going to succeed unless we help each other.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 26:47

So read that report. That's an order. That's an order, so read that report, that's an order.

Scott McLean: 26:51

Open your eyes, that's an order.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 26:54

That's right, or at least look at the executive summary. In the beginning, you know, just like my buddy here, scott, you said, wow, I opened your eyes in some ways. Well, you need to open each other's eyes, because there's no way you're going to understand what I've been through because I went through it, and there's no way I'm going to understand what you went through because you went through it, and there's no way I'm going to understand what you went through because you went through it. So we need to just listen to each other, and that goes to my point about how do we stop the suicides. We need to work more as a team, we need to talk to each other and listen.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 27:30

And that needs to happen all the time, because by the time, somebody is showing signs of suicide ideation. Where were we when it was their birthday? Or where were we when they needed help moving? Where were we when they were getting homeless? I mean, my landlord was here, thankfully. Thankfully I'm not saying that I was contemplating suicide, but who knows what would have happened to me if I didn't have this angel assist me in my difficult time.

Scott McLean: 28:04

We have to be there for each other as friends, as colleagues, as teammates.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 28:07

Can I mention some of the nonprofits people may not know about? Well, so Service Women's Action Network, that's at a national legislative. You know, bare knuckles, research, getting laws passed to help women veterans in particular. But then that helps men veterans, because we have to be a team capable of working together and if you can't give women what they need, then we can't be an optimal team member. Right Locally in Florida there's the gray team and their mission is to provide non-pharmaceutical treatments, because another factor of suicide ideation is the side effects of all of these drugs and stuff. Gray team, g-r-e-y team, irreverent warriors I was turned off by the name irreverent and then somebody invited me and said oh, come on, it's just fun.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 28:55

It's just fun and it's only veterans. Some of these veteran organizations, they want the families involved, but this is just us. And I tell you what. That was some of the most healing moments for me, just to sit and listen and chat and reminisce and because we get each other. I I mean, maybe we need to listen more to understand the male, female thing, but we get each other.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 29:17

We know what it's like to go, uh, to the chow hall during boot camp when you had 2.5 seconds to eat something and then you inhal it up because you were running. We get that, ah, the memories. So Irreverent Warriors and their mission is just to have social engagements, primarily through hikes, and then American Legion's on this full-on campaign, because American Legion's been around, you know, since the beginning of time and they're really hoping to get younger people. And I don't know if you've seen their ad campaign Hilarious, they're hilarious. So kudos to American Legion. And they're involved at every local level as well as national passing laws that we don't realize. You know, the fact that the disability pay gets increased cost of living.

Scott McLean: 30:15

The veteran service officers are always top notch.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 30:19

Yeah, american Legion. And then, likewise, disabled American veterans, dav. They're also very and they're focused on those of us who have disabilities and making sure. They were very instrumental. The DAV Disabled American Veterans. They were very instrumental nationally and in state levels of making sure we had community care options so we didn't have to wait 30, 60, 120 days to see our specialist and in the meantime we were deteriorating and some of us even died and I wish I had the numbers on that, but it's just disgusting. So yeah, the community care option for veterans. But remember, if you've worn the uniform you have to have a minimum amount of time and I don't want to misquote it. But if you've worn the uniform, men and women out there or whatever you identify yourself, go to your nearest American Legion or veteran of VFW or and say how do I get my benefits? And somebody there it's usually a VSO, a veteran service officer will help you because it's a lot of paperwork.

Scott McLean: 31:20

Yes, yes, we have a Women's Veterans Day coming up next month, I believe right. June yes, june, so two months, a couple months away. You gave me a little history on that before we came on, so please, please, lisa, share that. This is amazing information that I don't think anybody knows. This You're the only person in the world right now that knows this, so tell us please.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 31:47

I want to rename it. I want to rename it Woman, finally Get Paid for Servant Day.

Scott McLean: 31:54

And tell the people why?

Lisa Browne-Banic: 31:55

Because that's what it is everybody, Please listen up. It's officially called Woman Veterans Day, but it's simply to commemorate the day, the day in 1948, June 12th, that President Harry Truman signed the bill saying women can now get paid in the military, in the US Armed Forces, Because before that, guess what guys we never got paid a penny. We were given room and board but we were not given a paycheck until June 12th 1948 by President Harry Truman.

Scott McLean: 32:38

That definitely needs to be recognized. Well, Lisa, I have and I say this to all my guests because when I have them on I always learn more than I knew coming in, and that's a beautiful thing for me. But I do have a funny feeling. You will be on again. We'll have more to talk about, I have no doubt about that.

Scott McLean: 33:02

I I have a feeling that I say this, because it's just amazing what I'm learning about non-profits and what they offer veterans and and I'll be talking to people from the VA also, that's right. Well, lisa, again, thank you so so much. Thank you so much.

Lisa Browne-Banic: 33:18

Oh, I'm really honored and it was a real pleasure to meet you and to finally get on. And thank you for passing me, because I appreciate it.

Scott McLean: 33:27

Well, at the Herd Foundation we call it applying pressure. We apply pressure and it usually works. If you apply it the right way and gently and like with the horses, move the horses, you apply pressure. I'm just going to put you back in the green room. We can talk for a minute as I do my, my outro. So I will see you in a minute and again, thank you so much, lisa. Thank you very much all right, you're welcome well, there you have it.

Scott McLean: 33:53

I want to thank you for listening. If you're getting this on YouTube, thank you for watching. Subscribe, hit that bell. If you're listening on one of the podcast platform, let me know what you like, what you didn't like and if you want to get in touch with the podcast you feel like you want. If you want to come on the podcast, you can email me at vets connect podcast at gmailcom. And so there you have it. We built another bridge today and I'll be back next Monday to build another one. Until then, you'll hear me on Monday.