The VetsConnection Podcast
Join host Scott McLean, a veteran and also a passionate advocate for veterans' well-being. Each week Scott will bring you an episode that will feature insightful conversations with representatives from non-profit organizations dedicated to supporting veterans, as well as experts discussing programs within the Veterans Affairs (V.A.) aimed at assisting veterans with their needs. From discussing innovative therapies to highlighting community resources, this podcast sheds light on the myriad of ways veterans can find support and healing thru nonprofit organizations and also to connect nonprofits with each other in hopes of creating a network that will be beneficial to all.
The VetsConnection Podcast
Ep. 44 - Talking With Lindsey Hildebrand From The Florida LEADS Project (Launch Engage Activate Departments and Systems for Zero Suicide)
Welcome to the podcast. I'm Scott. My guest today is Lindsay Hildebrand. Lindsay is with the Florida Leads Project. Florida Leads Project meaning Launch, engage, activate Departments and Systems for Zero Suicide Project seeks to transform and improve suicide care practices, standards and outcomes in service delivery systems throughout rural and urban counties in northeast, northwest, central and west florida. Did I, did I get that right, lindsey? That's correct absolutely look at that first. Try no edit here.
Lindsey Hildebrand:No not at all how you doing today I'm doing well.
Scott McLean:Thanks for having me that's Thank you for coming on. So I had heard about Florida leads through my friend, henry Angulo with the Firewatch, and I had the privilege to be in one of the veteran focus groups for leads and I found it very interesting, very informative, very important. So I decided you know what this needs to be an episode on my podcast. And again, thank you, thank you for accepting the invitation. Yeah, so, lindsay, tell us a little about yourself, where you're from and how you got into this space.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Sure, so I currently live in North Carolina but I am a graduate research assistant with the Florida Leads Project down at the University of Central Florida. But originally I'm actually from Minnesota. I bounced around with the military on active duty for a little bit before transitioning out into my civilian career, which has been focused on social work, predominantly with the veteran population and looking at suicidality and stuff, which is why I decided to join the Florida Leads Research Project with Dr Grigolowicz. So that's kind of how I ended up in the space that I'm in, especially as I was going up through my career.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I think a lot of veterans, a lot of folks that are still in, can relate to this. I think there's not one person that I know in the service that doesn't know somebody that has been lost to suicide, and I think that's just the unfortunate reality of the space that we're in. And so because of that I kind of pushed myself into this space and thinking about this from a perspective and a social work perspective. Institutions can really help with this problem from a public health perspective and really trying to translate that to be able to reduce suicide rates.
Scott McLean:What branch of the military were you in?
Lindsey Hildebrand:I was in the Army. I was a military intelligence officer, which I suppose is the largest oxymoron. As they say so. They say so. I'm not sure whether I believe in believe in calling it military intelligence so that's what I was, and how long did you serve?
Lindsey Hildebrand:So I served for about four years on active duty. I am just actually getting out this year from the reserves and stuff, getting out this year from the reserves and stuff. So I've like decided to finally like half off my time and I was ready to kind of put all my eggs in the basket of kind of transitioning to my civilian career and focusing on my social work career so I can work with veterans predominantly.
Scott McLean:So at what point did you flick the switch and say you know what? Because that's kind of a that's a big jump going from military intelligence into what you do now. That's as I say, when I was in I was a canine handler for US Customs and Border Protection here in South Florida and I was on an anti-terrorism, anti-smuggling unit the drug dog. It was kind of high speed. Then I went my last four years to an office job, wanted to did enough with the dogs. It's kind of a young man's game and, as I said, it's like going from being a plumber to a lawyer, right. Totally different things being out with you with your dog in your vehicle, doing whatever we did, and then all of a sudden I'm reporting to a cubicle right With a computer. So how, how, where did that change happen for you?
Lindsey Hildebrand:I think a lot of it.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I grew up in research.
Lindsey Hildebrand:In my undergraduate career I thought immediately after I got done with my undergrad I was going to move on to a PhD in like clinical psychology and really following that traditional psych route, and so I was like I think I had an itch, I kind of needed to kind of scratch and I was, as I was like commissioning through ROTC.
Lindsey Hildebrand:It's like you know I'm going to really regret it if I don't go active duty.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Maybe in hindsight that wasn't the best decision, but I'm really happy about the way it turned out because I think it gave me a lot more perspective, especially thinking about it from a translational side, of why veterans are coming out with the issues that they have you know knowing and being in the system I'm sure you can relate to this, scott, and stuff of like seeing kind of the systemic barriers and issues that a lot of our service members face and getting quality mental health care in the active duty space and just the latency of those issues really being, you know, dealt with and stuff is, you know, kind of harboring the severity and the intensity of the problems that we're seeing once veterans do kind of transition now and stuff.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Time really put things into perspective for me about how these issues were not really going to get any better until we started. Kind of addressing it from a translational perspective, but also like thinking about that in a longitudinal space, because often it gets so siloed off into a point where it's like okay, mental health or like active duty and stuff, and not really thinking about how that's going to affect some of those rates and during transition, during that immediate transition that a lot of military service members struggle with when they initially get out, but also thinking about how those have a lot of propagating effects for what the VA faces. A lot of these, you know, other health organizations and nonprofits also face with the veterans that they're serving as well.
Lindsey Hildebrand:So I think, in just looking at that and also just gathering the experiences of what a lot of, I would say I went through, a lot of what you know my friends are getting out right now go through and just being able to access mental health care, some of the struggles they face, especially with that military to civilian, you know, identity transition and like it's a huge thing that we don't talk about and how difficult that transition is. But also the like inaccessibility a lot of the times towards mental health care points. Like inaccessibility a lot of the times towards mental health care points and especially since, for the first time when they transition out, you know you're kind of left to your own devices. You're so used to being in an institution that tells you what to do, where to go, like who to see and everything, and then you get out. It's this great big opportunity, it's this great big world, but you don't really have the resources to understand how to navigate it and to be able to deal with the things that haven't been dealt with a lot of the time.
Lindsey Hildebrand:So I think that kind of was like the pushing point for me is just kind of watching that kind of journey throughout and just looking at how that was affecting the people around me and the and also the clients that I served in um, within the social workspace, but also within the clinical research space too. Um, of a lot of folks. I see a lot of older veterans in my um, clinical research and stuff, and it's a lot of the things we're seeing with like even neurodegenerative disorders, um, suicidality, like later in life. It's because of stuff that they weren't able to deal with, because they didn't have access to the resources that they needed.
Scott McLean:I think to add on to that one of and I can only speak from personal experience when I got out, I was just too busy to address anything. Like I got out and I had a family and all of a sudden you have to rent a house, you're moving, you have to rent a house, you have to put first, like finances became my focus, getting my family settled and working together as a family unit for school and transportation. And then you get, you know, know, you have the job and you're working and you can't you get a new job. So I'm I'm like I'm not gonna address any issues right now, I'll screw up my job, like there's a lot of outside factors other than accessibility. And then there is the okay, I have time and I'm going.
Scott McLean:Okay, I'll go to the VA because I never knew and my listeners have heard me say this a hundred times I never knew that nonprofits or anything like this existed for veterans. It was just the VA was all I knew about and my first interaction with them was not good. It was handed me paperwork and it was fill it out and come back and, as we know, as veterans, the last thing we want to do is fill out a ton of paperwork and then wait. So that added to the like, not addressing my issues. And plus, you're living in it. I'm living in this PTSD brain that I don't know. I'm in because I've been functioning in it and it takes a lot of self-awareness to eventually say hey or prompting.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Yeah, and I think that totally like that totally applies in every scenario, right?
Lindsey Hildebrand:Where you know, we know, especially like from the research on veterans who transition, there's like this really great spectrum of you know how they kind of deal with that initial point. And so because sometimes it's like veterans are extremely motivated when they get out and they don't struggle with their transition, then they really flourish in having new challenges and it's really that growth mindset and stuff and being able to kind of take on a new life be, you know, and adapt to their circumstances. That also goes in resiliency and strengths-based perspective. But then there's also this other side of, like you know, we don't think about the environmental factors of, like you know, basic safety needs have to be met first and a lot of the times, even in looking at transition, that's why we look at, you know, folks that immediately become homeless when they transition out and why that's such a huge issue for mental health for that reason. But it's also, like you know, you don't have the time to really be able to deal with it because you have to deal with just normal life stuff that realistically you haven't had to deal with as benefit of being in the military for so long, because most of that stuff was taken care of for you, um, for the most part and you don't really have to think about it. And now you have all of these kind of like systemic, um, all of these systemic kind of you know challenges that you have to work through so there is at least some motivation resolved. But then you know there's always that optimal tipping point, right where there's like an optimal amount of stress that a person can take on, where it's like you know motivation. But then there's that tipping point where it becomes debilitating and it's an additional stressor that actually propagates into, you know, mental health and stuff. So I think it's always interesting to see who does well in that perspective and then you know at what point you know things kind of catch up and like sometimes there are a lot.
Lindsey Hildebrand:You know, I'm working as a former transition coordinator and so with the active duty side, not a lot of folks know anything outside of the VA and so because it's the thing that it is the biggest institution for you know healthcare, and so when veterans transition but you know, not all VA health systems within different states are created equal.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I have worked with really great VA centers in my career and I've also worked with really poor ones, and so that's where, like, nonprofits come in poor ones and stuff, and that's where, like, nonprofits come in and fill the space, but it's almost like sometimes there's such an overabundance of them that it's like hard to find the one that really fits for you and stuff, because there's, like you know, it's crazy, like on transition there's like 50,000 plus transition resources and organizations, and you're just sitting there like I'm just trying to like get out, get my DD 214 and like get my life set up, like how do I have time to even sift through like even like a fraction of that and stuff?
Lindsey Hildebrand:So, because there are a lot of great organizations out there, but you know their veterans are connecting with those organizations and organizations are connecting with those veterans because it's just getting lost.
Lindsey Hildebrand:You know, I think in the um, the normalcy of that transition, but also it's just, um, I don't think we found a really good way to be able to match veterans to those spaces, cause we often leave it up to as an individual responsibility of like well, you chose to get out, so therefore you must go find and go forth and like find all these resources, instead of being deliberate about that during the transition, about like hey, what resources are you going to need and stuff and making a deliberate effort to make that plan for that veteran and stuff. And I think in looking at it from that transition coordinator perspective and stuff, that's what we tried to do a lot of the times but you know a lot of we were also under resource, like I was taking care of 24,000 soldiers and stuff as a transition coordinator. Like that's super unrealistic to be able to do that on an individual level on an individual level.
Lindsey Hildebrand:So then it becomes an individual like that individual's responsibility to do it when they probably just don't know where to look in the first place. So it just creates a lot of gaps in care for after they transition and something you know that can. Obviously those gaps can leave a lot of room for, you know, increased, I think, burden, loneliness and just being able to like figure out who not only who they are after transition, but also being like you know how do I navigate, even in this new space and stuff and those can really increase a lot of those risk factors and external stressors for suicidality, which is why we tend to see that uptick.
Scott McLean:I think you touched on a couple of things. So one is finding the okay, say you do find the nonprofit, right, I was told. So I'm a recovering alcoholic and I was told early on don't judge AA by the first meeting you go to Find your meeting. There's plenty of meetings. Some are hardcore, some are easy, some are more, you know, empathetic, Some are just straightforward. Find the one that fits you. And I say that about these nonprofits with veterans. Don't go to a nonprofit and you're like, well, they didn't do shit for me, there's another one, there's another one out there that you will find, that you will settle into and that'll be your nonprofit for veterans that helps you do what you have to do and hopefully gets you moving forward and helps you deal with whatever you're dealing with.
Scott McLean:Also, let me ask you this you this do you think time in the military makes a difference to somebody transitioning? Somebody transitioning with maybe a mental health issue, like, say, ptsd? And I use the example of me I was in for 10 years, so I was. It's kind of like being institutionalized for 10 years, right, I've heard prisoners say that they become institutionalized. That's why prisoners or inmates have a hard time adjusting when they get out because they were institutionalized being in the Air Force for 10 years, security police, there's things that go with that, everyday things. Or four years. Four years breezes by sometimes. You know you do that, so do you think that that has an effect on maybe the veteran getting out? The one that's been in longer has a hotter adjustment than the one that's been in four years, and that goes for. You know, of course, what we're talking about, like, say, mental health.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Yeah, I think that's always a hard question because it also like on a systematic level, like we know that you know, the more an individual kind of gets familiar with an institution, the more kind of social norming and social scripting that happens with it. But it also depends on those individual characteristics. You know what they actually experienced during their career is going to really, you know, increase or decrease the you know the likelihood of being exposed or even being onset to a mental health disorder. But it's also going to depend on, like what protective factors that that person has. Do they have good family relationships, right, that can be a really strong protective factor and so during their time in, and also it's going to, like I said, it also might depend on like that person's like resiliency level, their ability to like bounce back from hardship. So I think those types of questions it's always really, you know, it's always I hate saying you know the give the stupid army answer of like it's MedTC dependent.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I think it's such a complicated relationship because individuals play off the systems, but also systems sometimes influence the way that individuals deal with certain issues, deal with certain issues.
Lindsey Hildebrand:So being able to also like taking that into account like I haven't seen any research that's been published. That's like you know, time in service is like a great predictor of whether they come out with mental health issues. Because it is such a complicated relationship. I think what more often happens is whether there's unresolved mental health issues that they incurred during their time in service that were never dealt with. That really kind of more predicts the severity and the likelihood that they're going to deal with issues like anxiety, depression, ptsd, suicidality, when they do transition out, because those things are going to make it that much harder for folks to be able to adapt to a new system. Right, because you have to think about, you know what those types of disorders do to a person's you know autonomic system, their physiology, their psychophysiology, neurobiology, you know even like their cognitive patterns and stuff. Like when all of those things are feeding in, it's going to make the challenge of that already challenging kind of transition out that much harder, right?
Lindsey Hildebrand:So I would say you know, like I hate giving the answer of like it's so dependent on the individual, but it really is and it's going to be dependent on the risk factors that they have, and then also the strength of those protective factors, and then being, like you know and those are constantly in flux, right there's always going to be times in your life where your risk factors might outweigh some of the protective factors, and what those protective factors can do and you know what we try to do, you know, in social work and even throughout the mental health field is really being like what does the individual have that we can do to build up their protective factors, whether that be building community that's what nonprofits are really great for, right, and I think you bring up such a good point, scott, of, like you know, not every nonprofit is not a one size fits all.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Right, where it's like you hope that when you go in and connect with these organizations and stuff that it's like you know, love at first sight it's the first meeting and it works out and sometimes it does, but a lot of it, much, much to life is like it's trial and error, you're going to find it's going to take a few tries for you to be able to find that organization that you connect with, that greater community identity, which is what a lot of veterans kind of you know cite, especially as they're going out.
Lindsey Hildebrand:And you know, in talking to folks that have higher risk for suicidality, it's that loss of community that really gets to them when they do transition and stuff and when they do go back out to the civilian world and stuff, it's like it's that complete loss of that social identity is a huge risk factor.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Um, so that's why, you know, that's why I wish we would encourage a lot more being like, hey, let's find ways to build up that protective factor, like you're not theoretically losing this community and stuff you're losing in a certain aspect.
Lindsey Hildebrand:But what are we do? What can we do to kind of build that back up on the civilian side to? You know, it's so, like I said, it's so complex and the and what we can do in that space is really just kind of look at those things and look at what is salient for the individual in order to best mitigate those risk factors, but also making sure that we don't just look at the risk factors too, because I think on a lot of aspects, the military does a really good job of you know, acknowledging like, hey, there are significant factors, let's reduce them. But then we don't think about the positive side of things, about what are we doing to build up those protective factors for people when they do get out, Cause we're so focused on mitigating this. It's not to say risk factors don't play into protective factors for people when they do get out, because we're so focused on mitigating this, it's not to say, risk factors don't play into protective factors and vice versa.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I think we tend to focus so much on that negative affectivity perspective that we're not really focused on how are we building up those folks and those veterans for when they get out, so that way they can adapt successfully?
Scott McLean:Yeah, I think a, a simple implementation would probably be helpful in the transition from military to civilian world and it would be determined on, I guess, where you're getting out or where you're going to. But I have this saying I'm like find your nonprofit. I don't know why that like that should be like a statewide advertisement that the state pays for Find your nonprofit. And if I was a veteran and I was getting out which I did if they had had something that says hey, you know, this is a whole world that's available to you. Here's a list of all the nonprofits where you're going to be at, here's a list of all the nonprofits in the country.
Scott McLean:I know that's a big broad thing, but I got out in Albuquerque and I went to Boston, right. So if I had known and then I end up in South Florida if I had had that like find your nonprofit and this is what they do for veterans at least I would have had the resources instead of not knowing anything about it, not knowing it existed until I had gone to see my VA psychologist and she recommended the herd foundation, equine therapy, and I was like, what, like? And this is open to my whole world. That world should have been open 20 years ago. You know what I mean.
Scott McLean:And I think that that maybe with the, the, the, the suicide aspect of this, maybe that's a good way to maybe start at least chipping at the stone. I have an option and I didn't know I had other than the VA.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Yeah, I think that's such a good point that you bring up and I think it is being worked on in some aspects, but I also know it's you know the scale of the problems because so many folks are, when they do get out right, they're not usually staying within the local area and stuff. They're relocating to different places which can make finding, like you said, those resources really difficult because, like, if you're lucky that veterans like really knowledgeable about the area, they might be returning to their hometown or their home state and stuff and they know where to find it and so.
Lindsey Hildebrand:But you also have to think about the fact that for the most part veterans and like service members, you know, when they were in they didn't really have to find a lot of resources because they were all co located on the base. Like you didn't have to leave the base, find a lot of resources because they were all co-located on the base. Like you didn't have to leave the base for a lot of things.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Maybe, you wanted to and stuff, but for the most part everything you needed was right there. So it makes that like I said. That's one of the things that makes transition really hard is because there is so much autonomy placed on the individual and responsibility placed on the individual to find it, which why, like I wish um, I know some of the transition coordinators really do try to push those non-profits and stuff and having a running list, but once again, how that gets updated right because there's non-profits being added like every day every day and stuff and to what level of quality as well, is always a question right like whether you know um like.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I want to believe most nonprofits have a good mission and stuff, but some of them, you know, might not actually be as effective as we think and stuff and so and. But then also taking into account, like, what does that individual service member connect with? Right, Like everybody has different interests, like getting out, like my nonprofit was Veterans Yoga Project. I was like I want to go back out, do yoga teaching, like do my mindfulness based, like, use my mindfulness based certification and be able to help other veterans. That's how I found my nonprofit was through yoga teaching and stuff. Not going to be the same for everybody else, Right?
Scott McLean:Let's get the name of your nonprofit. This is what this podcast is all about.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Yeah, veterans Yoga Project amazing, amazing foundation. It's nationwide, but it's also based state to state, so you have a veteran yoga coordinator per each of the states. Veteran yoga coordinator per each of the states, and usually there are specific sites that veterans can go to and access free yoga classes, and so they don't have to pay. It's completely free. If you want to check it out, just Google Veterans Yoga Project. It is excellent. We also have an online class. It is excellent. We also have an online class. So if, like there's not, there are classes within your local area you can completely log on for free and take free online classes. It also has a library. We also offer for veterans who are interested in becoming yoga teachers. We offer yoga teacher training at the 200 hour at a much reduced rate. Yoga teacher training at the 200 hour at a much reduced rate. Typically, um, yoga yoga certification is a lot more expensive than people think. It's about four grand that you're forking out for it. Um, that they do at a reduced rate. We offer scholarships as well. It's a fantastic program.
Scott McLean:I'm happy.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I could do a little plug for.
Scott McLean:I think wait a minute. I'm having a podcast premonition plug, for I think, wait a minute, I I'm having a a podcast premonition I think I see another episode with lindsey. I think I see lindsey coming on for her non-profit.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I think, yes, that's going to happen I could really talk about veterans yoga project.
Scott McLean:Well, that's, we'll seal the deal don't be surprised if it's in the next month or so. Okay sounds, sounds good, we'll definitely that's and boom, you'll go on my, my website, which is a resource page. It has it'll have your podcast, you know, attached to it and the whole thing. Yeah, that's great. So see we, just we have another episode coming up, lindsay.
Lindsey Hildebrand:So yeah, absolutely One day you'll get sick of me, Scott.
Scott McLean:No, no, no, no, you're fantastic. So let's get into Florida Leads. Where did Florida Leads start? What's in? What is the whole idea of it?
Lindsey Hildebrand:So Florida Leads was a so it's a SAMHSA grant, so it's a federally funded grant for mental health. So it really started out of both of our investigators, so Dr Griesowitz, who's over at I know where is Kim, so Kim, who's over at UCF, and then Dr Carver, who's down at USF, really trying to address through what's called the zero suicide framework. So it's this idea that you know, on a large scale, right, our ultimate goal is to drive down to zero suicide and stuff, and so that's kind of the main aim. But we accomplish that through a bunch of kind of multi tiered and multi factored kind of approaches or strategies, because we understand that there's, you know, a lot of factors that play into suicidality, you know, at the individual level, at the public health level, at the community level, so kind of understanding how to address that throughout all of kind of the spectrum of suicidality. But we really focus on, you know, what are ways that we can tangibly get after those efforts. So, scott, you mentioned, you know, being a part of, like one of the focus groups. We use those focus groups to really, you know, tailor like social awareness campaigns about suicidality within different, you know, populations that tend to experience, you know, suicide at a much higher rate than the civilian populations. Obviously, veterans is a big one because we know that they have about a 50% greater chance of of attempting or dying by suicide In comparison to the civilian population. They're more at risk. Same thing with our LGBTQ plus communities, our minoritized communities, minority communities, and then, you know, also, understanding the intersectionalities of a lot of those right and stuff and how that subgroup also plays into it.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Um, a lot of the times when we, you know, when we look at um suicide awareness campaigns, a lot of it tends to be blanketed. Yeah, right, where it's like. You know, veterans call 988 and stuff, and while I love the 988 number and stuff, it's not the only resource that's out there and stuff. So, like, being able to get integrated into the community of, like you guys are on the ground, right, you guys know a lot of more. I think about like, hey, what kind of speaks to um, you know your social identities, right, and the things that are successful about it.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Um, and so cause, you know, like, I think it's just hard for people that don't have that experience, they haven't been through those experiences, to really develop any sort of meaningful campaign that's going to get you to the resources that you need, but also finding prevalent resources as well that folks can connect with. But the other part of the aims that we also do is a lot of clinician and community training. So we focus on like a QPR like model, so really for folks, on a kind of what the CDC will call like a secondary intervention level of being able to identify if somebody is at risk for attempting suicide and stuff and being able to get them to points of care where they can actually receive evidence-based, like mental health care. At that point that's really important on a community level, right, because it's most likely that a clinician or like a licensed clinical social worker, therapist and stuff is not going to be the first point of contact and stuff, right, like it's usually going to be a peer.
Lindsey Hildebrand:That's why peer-to-peer models really work, um, but we also don't expect peers to be able to take on the like, the like, the work of being able to give that person, that individual, the, um, the mental health care that they need in order to reduce, like, suicide symptoms, right, what's really important for that individual is to get that person to that point, which is why that QPR model is kind of wrapped up into some of our aims as well.
Lindsey Hildebrand:But then we also focus on clinician training, right, because some folks come through the door and we're, you know, as a healthcare system, it's typically like, hey, we're usually really swamped and things get overlooked. So how do we train clinicians to be able to screen for suicidality better, in an evidence-based way? So that way we capture folks early and ahead of time, before the attempt is made, and getting them to a point of care once again and so, but also reducing the number of folks that are like Baker acted right, where they're involuntarily institutionalized, right, we want those folks to go willingly, because we know that actually improves outcomes in terms of symptom reduction. So being able to do that side of the clinician training, but then also training folks who are very deliberately in the suicide space being like. How do you do suicide safety planning? How do you set that up? How do you know does scream positive for being at risk for a suicide attempt as well? So you see, we have a lot of aims going on, like it's a really it's all relevant.
Lindsey Hildebrand:They're all relevant, but it's all relevant and it all fits together and thinking about it from a systems level, which is what you know is the way that we need to be thinking about suicide. And so, because it's like you know, we really have to think about it from top down and then also bottom up. Right, you know, do do those things separately and never comes together in a really cohesive manner to where we see any sort of like like significant change, right, like it has to be addressed at all levels. I'm thinking about how that all kind of combines together to reduce suicidality amongst individuals, populations and communities.
Scott McLean:So I think you touched on something that I can relate to, and it's the peer, the peer to peer. Peer is usually the first person I would think. Now correct me if I'm wrong most likely is the first person that gets called a friend, somebody they know, somebody they learn to trust or they think can help them, and that in itself it's the concept is good, it's there, it's great, call your friend, but the friend never expects it. They never, expect it.
Scott McLean:That phone call came to me on at 10 30 on a wednesday night, literally, and that's the last thing you expect to hear. A lot of people aren't ready for that and I think that is. I don't know how that gets addressed or how it plays into this whole. Let's knock that number down, you know. Let's get ready, let's get it to zero If they call a peer who doesn't know how to handle that. Well, you were my lifeline, you know. And what do I do now? Like it's the, you know, that's kind of the play that that happens at that point. And how do you think, how, how do you think that played? Like, how does that play into it?
Lindsey Hildebrand:I think it plays into it in a huge way. It is like you talked about Scott. It's like you are that person's lifeline and stuff, Like you are the person that, at some level, right, that person is. You know, disclosing, you know one of the most, probably difficult it is the most difficult experience, right, Like being able to admit. That takes a lot of one self-awareness, but also, you know, a lot of courage and then also a lot of trust in that individual, right.
Lindsey Hildebrand:So if we don't handle that situation right and we don't train those people right, it has extremely dire consequences, right, because the hope is like, hey, you know for that person, you know they might reach out to another individual. But especially when you're talking about folks who are thinking about suicide or might be attempting, that decision is made very quickly, like the decision to make an attempt happens in a very short amount of time, and I cannot stress that enough to people that like time and being able to like intervene is a very sensitive matter. And so, which is why that that peer, that peer training, that QPR training is really important and stuff, because that might be the only call that's made right um, yeah, and so, and that it's a scary thought and, like you know, thinking about this from somebody who doesn't deal with it on a day-to-day basis, handling that call is extremely scary it is.
Scott McLean:My head was racing. My mind went from from zero to a hundred in literally five seconds, when they boom. This is the first thing they said to me and I like to think that I'm. You know, I was. I was a cop for 32 years. I like to thank your hand, but you're never ready for that.
Lindsey Hildebrand:It's, it's really, it's a completely different type of pressure, because what's going, that the mental calculations going on in your head, is, like you know, do I have the resources to really be able to help this person? And that's where, like that, qpr training is is really important.
Scott McLean:QPR means QPR.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I'm sorry that is question persuade, refer, but it's that initial, you know, it's kind of like the baseline training for being able to to get folks to a point of care, but also trying to identify whether that person is in the realms of making an attempt or they're thinking about suicide, whether they have a plan or like a methodology to be able to carry out the attempts and so then being able to refer them to the correct resources. And I do want to stress this, like one QPR training, um, or like one suicidality training is like not going to make you an expert, right, and that's not the point, right.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Yeah, like, even then, like for somebody that deals with it, like I'm on crisis calls, I do screenings, I do like a lot of this work and it still scares the living shit out of me every single day and stuff Like I don't know if there's ever a level of comfort with having these types of conversations, but I think what we can do is equip people with the skills and the resources to know that they can handle that situation Right, just like you know it really it's, you know, a therapeutic means, right where we're teaching you like, hey, just actively listen, like listen for these things, be able to empathize with the individual right and being able to be able to like find a thread of hope in there, do strengths-based perspectives with them and give them a reason to go and have you escort them to like a resource and so where they can get the help that they need, because really, what you're doing is buying time.
Lindsey Hildebrand:You're buying time for that person to get to like a place where they can get the help that they need and get past that window where they're going to think about making the attempt and stuff, because once again, that time window is so short but it's so crucial.
Lindsey Hildebrand:And so getting that not necessarily right, but having the resources to be able to get that person to the point and having the skills to be able to do it, I think is one of the most important things on the peer-to-peer and there's a lot of nonprofits that do it, I think is one of the most important things on the peer to peer and there's a lot of nonprofits that do it. Firewatch is a great one that trains community members to be able to do that, like our, our grant as well. We partnered with them so got to give them a shout Um and so, but there's a lot of other great organizations that do it and I'm a really big advocate for like I think everybody should go through it because you don't know who's going to be calling at 1030 at night with that call and stuff or like or whatever other time.
Lindsey Hildebrand:because you know we hope that through that training also people will start to pick up on those things a little bit more. They're going to listen for a lot of those suicide risk factors and indicators and hoping that they get people through the door before that attempt is made or those ideations get worse, right where they morph more into attempt or there's non serious suicidal injury and stuff. So like the more that we can kind of do that on a community level. I think it is the case of like hey, that's really a big, I would say the biggest like secondary intervention measure, especially as we're thinking about it on a on like the public health scale. Like that's really one of the big, you know big like secondary interventions that we can do, because that's really what it's about, because you know me as a social worker, I won't know until somebody gets to my door, but I have to get that person has to get to my door, like so I'm a big fan of firewatch because it worked in my case.
Scott McLean:I'm a big fan of what you guys do because I know it works. So let me ask you this QPR right? You mentioned it a couple times. Everybody in America, pretty much everybody in America, knows about CPR. I don't know how that promotion started. I don't know how they got this thing to a nationwide level where it's almost part of our. You know, our, our growing up process or our. You know, when you're an adult, you, whatever job you're doing, you learn cpr. We got to take cpr course. Today, everybody's taking the cpi and it's like, uh, but it's effective. Why or I don't know how to phrase this question but why can't QPR be in the same level as CPR? Because it's something that they can do and coincide them Like, okay, cpr, qpr training today, you know, and make it a thing. Because I'm sure there's people listening right now that are like never heard of QPR, but it's right there on the level of CPR. It should be on the same level as CPR.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Oh, I 100% agree.
Scott McLean:The branding and everything.
Lindsey Hildebrand:It's got the letters, it flows, it's there, you can pull out your QPR qualified card, so sometimes I think that would be a great method and got to give props to the American Heart Association qualify. So sometimes I think that would be a great method, you know, and you know got to give props to the American Heart Association because they did such great, a great job for being like, hey, this is a level of, like life-saving care. But what is QPR? The exact same thing, just on the mental health side. But I think you know there are.
Lindsey Hildebrand:You know, as I was growing up through a lot of these institutions and stuff, qpr has started becoming. You know there are. You know, as I was growing up through a lot of these institutions and stuff, qpr started becoming, you know, started becoming a lot more of a recommended training. So initially it didn't exist at all and this was back in, like you know, when I went through a lot of my mental health like training, back in like 20, 2013 to 2017, like none of these courses were offered. And now we're starting to see a pickup a little bit where it's like at least organizations are offering it. But you're right, there's not that mandatory kind of like.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Hey, you know, if you're in a healthcare setting, like you have to take this training and stuff and so not to say some institutions don some Institute, uh, some institutions don't do it because some of them do um, the really good ones do is what I'll say, but the really great ones kind of look at it as, like this is, you know, basically the same thing as CPR, right, like, this is the last kind of the last line um, before you know somebody, somebody either like, dies, like, really like, and stuff like that is the last kind of lifeline um, and I really I think it's going to come to um, I think institutions um doing and making sure that it's something that's addressed, and I and I do think that goes into the stigma of like, you know, when somebody drops down and has a heart attack, right, right, it's something that's tangible, we can see it versus mental health is always this really big gray area and for some reason we don't like having open conversations about it because we're like well, what if we get it wrong?
Lindsey Hildebrand:And it's like, well, so what if you get it wrong? It's better to ask the question and be wrong about it. I was like I will take that 100% of the time I tried.
Lindsey Hildebrand:In other words, I tried, you know being like, and I was prepared and stuff like and we don't think about it in that way, because I think it is that stigma of like you know what, if we do get it wrong and we ask somebody about suicide, and it comes into like that mythology of like, oh, we, if we ask people about whether they're, you know, having suicidal ideations, or like they're going to attempt suicide and stuff that increases their risk, and we put the idea into their heads and it's like maybe that's really antiquated.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I don't think I hope nobody thinks like that anymore. I think something in the back of our head, um, really kind of sets off and we're like, we're like, oh, we can't ask about that and stuff, and it's like, but we absolutely should, because we're at a time and place in public health where people are lonelier than ever, especially coming out of post COVID, and so then we know that people, there's a greater awareness of mental health, and so now is the time that we really should be pushing a lot of these, like these trainings, at least at QPR, and so to be like, hey, let's you know, and thinking about it, even if it's not like you know the last, even though it is the last lifeline, being like these are just good skills to have like these are great ways for you to like build good active listening skills, to be able to like screen for these things and to be able to support folks like on a level, like those are all great things to have, like in any field and stuff and like building those skills are really important. But it's also like thinking about the end state, right when it's like you know this is. This is the point in which we can, on a systemic level, have a good you know, a good impact on who gets through our door and stuff Like even if they get it wrong, right Like and stuff like not everybody gets CPR right.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Yeah, not everybody gets CPR Right Exactly.
Scott McLean:And stuff, and you know what they tell you, and see, I just was.
Lindsey Hildebrand:It's so funny, I just went through my cpr train because it was required yeah, because I work in a medical health field why isn't qpr required? There too is there a certifiable course for qpr.
Scott McLean:Is it like, yeah, you can get a certificate?
Lindsey Hildebrand:yeah, you can get a certificate and everything. I think you bring up a good point. Maybe we just need to give everybody those like fancy cards, that's like I'm qpr, like exactly that's part of the marketing.
Scott McLean:It's part of the mindset. It's kind of like I have something, as you said, tangible I can hold it. Look at, I am qpr sort of, and I think I am a bottom I mean bottom ground, maybe even an inch below the dirt guy up start at the extreme, at the lowest, and work up top down. I was never a big believer in that in the military or when I was in customs.
Scott McLean:Top down is not always connected Bottom up you're connected to what's going on, connected to what's going on, and I think if municipalities start with municipalities and promote QPR in at that level, because the police, the fire, the you know, the, whoever, teachers, uh, anything in the municipality of, say, boca Raton, you know, make it a course that they all have to take, and then it starts to grow, I, I don't know, I, I don't, I don't, it's.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I just learned about this day and now my mind is like racing, like this needs to be a thing it should be a thing and I think it like it really has to go both ways right where there has to be enough feedback from the bottom level to really push this agenda and stuff, but to also make it where institutions are like hey, this is much like CPR, like this is a mandatory training for you to be in the medical health field.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Like, regardless of what role you play and stuff like whether you're a nurse, a social worker and stuff. I think there's oftentimes a relegation to like lead the mental health stuff for the mental health practitioners and stuff and like, but then not to say clinicians and nurses don't do it, because they absolutely do, but then, like you know all these other folks that work in like labs and different things, like you just don't know who's going to walk across your door and need that help and stuff. So being able to have the skills to do it is so important.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Or even as just a community member, right, like it, like not even trying to think about it, you brought up like first responders, police, it definitely need it because they are also at higher risk, um, for suicidality um and stuff amongst populations and stuff, but it really does amongst each other, yeah, amongst others yeah, absolutely, but there's just a need for it at the community level and for institutions to kind of be like hey, this is important, like acknowledging that this is something that is an issue, a systemic issue that needs to be addressed, is like really the first thing yeah, and and being like, hey, this is something that we can do to mitigate it, because I don't think anybody would go around being like suicide isn't a problem, and so like nobody's taking that, nobody's taking that mentality.
Scott McLean:Lightly yeah, and stuff.
Lindsey Hildebrand:But it's also like acknowledging the problem is the first step, but it shouldn't be the only step. What are we doing as systems, as institutions, as organizations, as communities, to really be able to get after, you know, reducing that rate? And I think this is like one of the first key steps that can be done and stuff that's at least widely accessible. And that's really what we're trying to do at Florida Leads is like thinking about it from that multi-tiered perspective of being like what do we offer to the community that we know gets are, you know, have made attempts for suicide and stuff and offering them, you know, training in evidence based methodologies like dialectical behavior therapy, cognitive behavior therapy for suicidality and stuff, and being able to promote those on a wide scale.
Lindsey Hildebrand:And, once again, thinking about it from the bottom up approach and how we kind of tier it and so it should be kind of like a pyramid, and we shouldn't be inversing it.
Scott McLean:Absolutely so. What's the future for Florida leads? What's the what's the? Long term plan.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I think the long term plan is just really to, you know, adapt these models and train as many folks in the Florida community as we possibly can and offer these trainings Like. We have amazing regional coordinators like um that are putting on these trainings for the community for free, um and stuff. So if you haven't signed up and you're interested, please like sign up for these trainings. It's completely free as long as you're located within the Florida community, Um, and and. So I think it's really to expand our reach.
Lindsey Hildebrand:And so, because we would love to get more folks into these trainings and get more people trained and seeing what the impact is and how they're, also to understand how they're using it, how often they're using it and being like, what impact is that having on their patients, on the clients that they see, or even, like you know, for folks out in the community being like, hey, even just having the openness to have those conversations, now that we like built those skills for them, now that they've taken the QPR, being like, hey, you know a lot of folks, you know, maybe not in Florida leads, but just from my personal experience, I've gone through a lot of these trains or like or like you know somebody came across my door and I listened and I listened for, like some of those suicide you know risk factors and stuff wouldn't have been able to before and felt like I had the ability and the skills to actually be able to get that person to care and stuff, and like that is the greatest success story that we could possibly have.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Right Is being like, how are we increasing, you know, the likelihood that person one makes it through the door? But also, at that point, how are they making it through systems of care to be able to not have reattempts to suicide right, and then, or like God forbid, completion of like a suicide death right? So you know which is really the ultimate goal? And so it is. I think we're also going to just be refining a lot of the aims that we're doing, um and going forward and you know, kind of taking what we've learned and being and being able to curtail it, because the best thing we can do is take what we've actually researched and be able to make it better. It should always be this continuous improvement um and stuff.
Lindsey Hildebrand:So if we hopefully get funded for the next round and stuff, I'm hoping that we get to refine a lot of the trainings that we've been doing to make it prevalent to the community, taking that feedback that we've gotten and being able to not just spread the awareness but also spread and be able to increase the competency on a huge scale from communities to you know, clinicians to you know, hospital institutions, medical institutions, and just being able, I think, to increase those competencies will have a profound effect and stuff. And it's I, you know, I think, really, when it comes to research and just any sort of project, right Like world's your oyster, like I think we're going to, as we're analyzing a lot of our data, we're going to figure out a lot of things that weren't successful that we tried to do, but we're also going to find out the things that really were impactful and so then being able to once again can contribute to greater scientific knowledge of being like hey, on a community level. These are the things that works Like, these are the ways to build these types of skills and competencies and what impact that they had. And same thing for all of our other other trainings that we've offered. But being like these are, I think, also really important.
Lindsey Hildebrand:And so then I think the scientific community sometimes puts a lot of stock in like statistical significance and is effective, without also discussing hey, here are the things that weren't effective and stuff. That's where a lot of those myths kind of hang out and why a lot of those things carry over. I'm also equally as interested to find out like, hey, what are the things that we're promoting, like that you know might be not effective and stuff that way we can, we can be like, hey, is this something we need to reassess? Is there a reason for this? Or is this now, like on such a large scale where, like this isn't a successful strategy and being able to adapt that as well? Um, like, I think the focus group.
Scott McLean:The focus group was good. I enjoyed it because you get to be real Like I get to say I don't like that, I don't see, you know, and I think that was important to get it from me and the other person that was in the focus group's perspective, and that's very important.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I think so too.
Scott McLean:What's the website if people want to reach out and see what they can do or what they can learn?
Lindsey Hildebrand:Yeah, so for the Florida Leads Project, if you just Google like Florida Leads and so I am totally not a great assistant for being like not knowing the URL from the top of my head.
Scott McLean:That's quite all right, that's quite all right.
Lindsey Hildebrand:That's quite all right, floridaleadsprojectcom. And so pretty simple. But if you just Google Florida Leads Project, if you don't want to remember the HTTP, I'm with you on that, trust me. Yeah.
Scott McLean:A good podcast host would have said you can find them at, but see you in New York.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I'm madly typing being like wait, do I have the right URL?
Scott McLean:Florida Leads Project. Just Google it and then you'll find it. It's L-E-A-D-S capital letters.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Yep indeed.
Scott McLean:Yes, well, is there anything else you want to talk about? Uh, do you guys take donations? Is there any way you know?
Lindsey Hildebrand:we are uh a research funded in some organizations I always want people to get money.
Scott McLean:I always want my listeners to give money to whoever I talk to so well if you are interested in making donations and stuff.
Lindsey Hildebrand:I think there's a lot of great community nonprofits that could use the donations. So, if you're interested, firewatch is one of our great collaborators within the community. They do take donations, since they are nonprofits, so donate to them because they're doing awesome partnership work with us and within the Florida community, so cannot shout that enough. And within the Florida community, so cannot shout that enough. Um and so even just to local nonprofits that are around, um you know what?
Scott McLean:that's a good segue into my cheap plug. I do this every episode. I know a good nonprofit, the one man one Mike foundation, that would like that would like donations we work with veterans.
Lindsey Hildebrand:We're doing good work with them. I, I it's. They are doing the best work and I can fully say they were awesome to work with. They were more than gracious and you should max out your donations.
Scott McLean:It's so cheesy, but I gotta do it every episode. My my board would would not forgive me if I did. They're like you got this platform like it's yours. You're the guy you do use it, plug it so every episode I slip in a cheap plug for the one man, one mic foundation, dot dot org. If you want to go there and donate, so not to, yeah, but also what's what's your non-profit? Again, which I will be talking to you in the next couple of weeks to talk.
Lindsey Hildebrand:It is called veterans yoga projects, um and so uh, you can once again also google it, but this one, I am a good assistant in this way. I remember this url. Maybe it's because I was looking at it right before I hopped on for the interview.
Lindsey Hildebrand:And so veteransyogaprojectorg. We also have an app as well, so if you just type in Veterans Yoga Project into your Apple or Google Play, you can also download it there and access free resources for like yoga, yoga videos, live classes, meditation classes and different events within your local area and finding a local teacher as well. So do a little plug for them and stuff you can also donate to Veterans Yoga Project. If you feel like donating, you can do. One man, one mic first, and whatever you have left over you can do to Veterans.
Scott McLean:Yoga, you're the best guest ever. Lindsay, you're the best guest ever. So, all right. Well, again you'll be hearing Lindsay, I'm sure, within the next three or four weeks. I love when there's a crossover that goes into this. So this is great, because I want to uplift your nonprofit. I've talked to nonprofits all around the country and that's my goal is to uplift nonprofits that work with veterans. And thank you for coming on this episode. I appreciate your time. I know you're a busy person and we will definitely be talking again soon. So hang on one second while I do my outro and then I'll talk to you a little bit after the episode.
Lindsey Hildebrand:Sounds good.
Scott McLean:Well, we built another bridge today. This one was a very good bridge. They're all good bridges, they're all good. Uh, if you uh like what you heard, please share it. Uh, I think the the podcast is doing well. It's getting some legs people listening, and I think it's because of you, the listeners. If you want to know more about the florida leads project, you can find them google florida leads project we can and you'll get all the information you need. They're doing some great work as you.
Scott McLean:As you heard this, this could have been a two hour show. I'm, I'm, I'm not lying, this could have been a two hour podcast and I'm sure somewhere down the line, uh, lindsay will be back on to give us updates on how Florida leads is going. And and yeah, so also, listen to the end of the podcast is a good public service announcement for nine eight, eight that we talked about earlier, and two on one. It's 30 seconds long. If you listen to the end, it's very informative. It'll help, helps veterans, families of veterans, friends of veterans and civilians alike. It's just a good, informative public service announcement and, as I always say, you will hear me next week with a new episode.
