The VetsConnection Podcast
Join host Scott McLean, a veteran and also a passionate advocate for veterans' well-being. Each week Scott will bring you an episode that will feature insightful conversations with representatives from non-profit organizations dedicated to supporting veterans, as well as experts discussing programs within the Veterans Affairs (V.A.) aimed at assisting veterans with their needs. From discussing innovative therapies to highlighting community resources, this podcast sheds light on the myriad of ways veterans can find support and healing thru nonprofit organizations and also to connect nonprofits with each other in hopes of creating a network that will be beneficial to all.
The VetsConnection Podcast
Ep. 53 - Film Director/Documentarian Jake Rademacher Talks About His Latest Documentary: Brothers After War. The Follow Up to His 2009 Award Winning Documentary: Brothers At war
What happens when the guns fall silent? When a director embarks on a journey to understand his brothers' experiences in war, he discovers a story far more complex than he anticipated—one that spans 15 years and follows the profound transformation of men who went from young soldiers to veterans finding their way home.
In "Brothers After War," documentary filmmaker Jake Rademacher reconnects with his two brothers and ten other veterans he embedded with during the Iraq War. The film weaves together past and present, creating a tapestry that shows these warriors as they were—young, idealistic, and thrust into the chaos of combat—and as they are now—seasoned adults navigating the challenges of civilian life with humor, wisdom, and sometimes, deep pain.
The documentary doesn't flinch from difficult truths. In perhaps its most powerful moment, Jake's brother Joe reveals he once sat with a gun in his mouth, half a pound of pressure away from ending his life—something he'd never told his family before. This raw confession illuminates the epidemic of veteran suicide that has claimed 35,000 lives since the War on Terror began. Yet the film isn't defined by darkness. We watch as veterans forge new paths—building businesses, raising families, supporting fellow veterans, and finding purpose beyond their military service. From a former sniper turned commercial banker to a lieutenant colonel who discovers joy in forestry management, these stories illustrate the remarkable resilience of those who've served.
What distinguishes "Brothers After War" is its intimate perspective, possible only because of Jake's unique position as both filmmaker and brother. The camera captures unguarded moments of brotherly love, conflict, and healing that transcend the typical war documentary. When one veteran says his most memorable moment from the past two decades is "right now—knowing someone still cares," we understand the film's true mission: to ensure veterans know they're not forgotten, that their stories matter, and that the bonds forged in war can help build bridges to civilian life. Executive produced by Gary Sinise, this is more than a documentary—it's a reminder that while war ends, the journey of the warrior continues, deserving of our attention, understanding, and support.
Welcome to the podcast. I'm Scott McLean. My guest today is Jake Rademacher. Jake is a documentary filmmaker. Jake just released his second of two documentaries based on the story of his brothers who went over to the Iraq war. This one is called Brothers After War. It's the follow-up to Brothers At War, which, brothers At War, won the Best Documentary Feature Award at the 2008 GI Film Festival. So, jake, in this one, in Brothers After War, jake reconnects with his brothers Joe and Isaac and elite soldiers and Marines he embedded with during the Iraq War and elite soldiers and Marines he embedded with during the Iraq War. Into cutting footage past and present. He leads us on an insightful, humorous and moving journey as we watch their path from warfighter to veteran. Directed by Jake and executive produced by Gary Sinise and Phil Gurin, it was released in theaters across America this past February 28th, which was my father's birthday, and is now out on digital, or it's coming out on digital, jake. I hope I got that all right, are we good?
Jake:We're good it's actually out on digital today. There you go, it's available everywhere.
Scott:Perfect, perfect, and we're going to say this again at the end of the podcast. But what platforms can people watch it on?
Jake:We're really fortunate. It's available on Amazon, iTunes, Google Play, YouTube, Microsoft. It's also on DVD, actually on the shelves of Walmart and on Amazon as well.
Scott:Great. I watched Brothers After War and it is fascinating. It is fascinating. I highly recommend it, and I'm not just saying it because Jake is sitting in front of me. I highly recommend it. It's a fascinating journey, but you want to watch Brothers At War first. This is the follow-up, so is that available also out on digital?
Jake:Brothers At War was released in 2009, 2010. It is. You can find DVD for it. They're going to re-release the film in the middle of August. Great, and I would just say that, you're okay, we cut this film. Gary Sinise and I talked about this when making the film that we wanted to make, brothers at War, so you could see it by itself. Yeah, so anything you need to know about from the first one, we actually cut back to in the original film. So you have that context and there's some stuff in this new film that was filmed in iraq in 05 and 06 and outside of iraq that you never saw in the original film, because I shot about two or three hundred hours of footage and only an hour and you know, 47 the first film. So that was sort of like a gold mine for us to go back, because some things grew in prominence with the passing of time.
Scott:Yes, and it does do a great job at filling in the blanks. So I, though, am going to track down Brothers at War just because now I want to see it, although this does fill in the blanks, you're correct. So, jake, you're the documentarian. You tell other people's stories. What's your story? How did you get into all this, into the documentary world? And you had instant content with your brothers, and I want to know what your thought process was going into that.
Jake:You know, um, storytelling has been a part of my life. You know I really I wanted to go to West point and really bad eyesight kept me out of it and through a series of kind of trying to find myself, I found storytelling of all places in Ireland and uh, there I was in Chicago doing theater and nine 11 happened and I was so moved by that. And at this point my younger brother was a west point grad and a ranger, tabbed infantry officer in the 82nd, so I knew he was going to war. But really the the story starts when my brothers came home from fallujah, where isaac had been an infantry officer but the civil relations rebuilding the community, joe had been a sniper with 120 missions under his belt and they told me the truth was not making it home from Iraq and as a brother that really pissed me off. So I made the, I guess, unconventional, unique decision to take every dollar ever made, started a production company and went back home, raised some more money and went to Iraq and joined Isaac on his third deployment in Mosul, iraq. And that is the start of brothers at war. You know, isaac's leaving for his third deployment saying goodbye to his little daughter, um, and then I, you see my journey to go join him overseas and then get out to the Syrian border. The guys I meet out there are in the new film brothers after war, my, my own brothers. We reconnect with them. But also, you know, first I started with Isaac's unit, went out to the Syrian border with them, captured life in Mosul, iraq. But then, you know, in the second half of Brothers After War, I returned to the Sunni triangle between Ramadi and Fallujah and I embed with three units infantry company, sniper team and then marine advisors working with the Iraqi army, and ended up getting into a decent amount of combat, spent about six weeks there, went out six days a week and met just some amazing, amazing people over the course of all four of those embeds.
Jake:And so in Brothers After War, what we do is we follow up with my two brothers and then 10 friends I made in Iraq, and in order to do that I had to literally travel the globe. I think we ended up shooting on four continents. And in order to give the audience a little bit of fun and really wanted to be fair to them, right, because I did ask some tough questions, we do visit some tough parts of the war I do in the interim of these two movies. I work with I think we're pushing up to 50,000 service members and their families. So I've spent years more than two decades, you know working with these vets, getting them to use the first film to open up about their experience in journal. So I wanted to do a little bit of a deep dive so I asked tough questions. You know we really dug in. But I also wanted to give a holistic look at what a veteran is. So I did stuff. Like you know, derek talks about jumping out of an airplane in 2005 in.
Jake:Iraq and there's no better feeling. So of course we have to, in the modern day, cut to. He looks like a Viking and he throws me out the side of an airplane. And Chris is going to Honduras to help out another vet and scuba diving, so we have to go to Honduras with him to do that, and you know, the list goes on and on. You know there's there's all these, which to me, is one of the favorite.
Jake:My favorite parts of the movie is seeing and spending a day with them in their life now.
Jake:Whether it's working with special needs kids, whether it's building luxury homes on Long Island, you know, whether it's jumping out of airplanes or or doing life-saving non-profit work, you know they are leading really adventurous, interesting lives now and I wanted to capture the essence of that.
Jake:There's also, you know, a lot of camaraderie and humor, most of the times at my expense. That's in the film as well. You know, I really wanted people to enjoy the experience of revisiting these folks, and so I feel like that's a really important part of it and really gives you like a nice, well-rounded view of our veterans, and I think it's a very approachable film for that reason, and you know it, I recently watched the film at the Reagan presidential library and they were laughing at all the right places and that really made me feel good. You know I was like, okay, this is a, this is a film that people really enjoy watching. Made me feel good, you know I was like, okay, this is a, this is a film that people really enjoy watching. And then in the midst of that you also get some real insights, I would say, into the very heart of our veterans and their families.
Scott:It is definitely a rollercoaster ride of emotions. No doubt about that. Isaac and Joe, your younger brothers.
Jake:Yep, isaac and Joe, both younger brothers. I know Isaac looks a little older, I'm just aging better.
Scott:So that as a big brother, right in the big brother's role, growing up and you watch these two go off up and you watch these two go off and you get that rare opportunity to actually be over there with them in bed with them. What was the process of getting that done?
Jake:Oh, a year of pain and suffering. Um, you know, I had to apply to the military. I had to get an experienced producer on board. I tried to get a network to do it and we got. I had to apply to the military. I had to get an experienced producer on board. I I tried to get a network to do it and we got all the way up to the top, but no network wanted to send a first time filmmaker into a war zone. So I got a producer by the name of Norman Powell, legendary television producer, produced, you know, 24,.
Jake:The pilot of the unit, um, did a documentary about metal of honor recipients himself, and so he, he loved what I was trying to do and he said I'll back you up. And then the department of defense said okay, you know, I went back to my hometown, decatur, illinois. I got 18 people to put up money. They also wanted to get the truth back. The, the, the you know the story from the people on the front lines, you know to give them a voice. They, they, they signed on for that mission. And once I put all that together and it took about 12 months I got the green light from the DOD and then jumped on an airplane and flew to Iraq and got started.
Scott:So during this movie is actually that that brings something up. There's a conversation between you and your brother and Afghanistan and he conversation between you and your brother and Afghanistan and he kept questioning you like how do you know? How do you know that we are supposed to be there? How do you know we would do which was? So you see, that level of brotherly connection, because now he has the right to talk to you and question you. You're not just a documentarian, he's talking to you as his brother.
Scott:He's not talking for the camera, which I thought was very interesting, but it really did show, uh, the intensity of what a veteran thinks about coming back from there like you don't know, you don't know if we're there, they don't know if they were there for the right reason, but they were doing their job. So when those things pop up, as a director, as a documentarian, is there anything in your head? That kind of twists like this is good content. It's kind of a weird question to ask, but you evoked a real emotion from him and which is always good film. Did that ever I don't know if that's the appropriate question uh, come into play like, wow, that that was a good it's. It's, it's touching, but it was, it's, it's, it's great, it's great film, it's great. Watching for the, for the viewer, because I was like my eyes were open.
Jake:I was like this is, this is real I mean listen, in the moment you're seeing my real emotions, my real.
Jake:That's a real argument. You know, he's actually got my ire up a little bit. Uh, he's, he's pissed me off. Um, I'm trying. You know, I generally keep my cool more than him, but you know, but that's a real debate.
Jake:I myself like to watch those moments because it stays sort of the same but I change, and because it's an authentic human moment. Sometimes Joe's point of view I start to understand more or agree with over time. I felt like there's a couple moments right, there's me as the human being trying to make the film, also, at the same time, a brother, and there's this conflict that's coming and it's a conflict. What I thought was interesting is what's unique is I was in Iraq. I spent three months. I did all the embeds, you know. I went out and got all these different points of view. I've been working with vets, I've been paying attention, right. But he's also been on the front lines. He's deployed nine times now. He's he's got a college degree and a master's. This is not the you know 18 year old thousand yard stare. This is now a former special, you know tier one operator who has been, like you said in and out of Afghanistan like seven times in a decade and seen a lot of people come and go to include in body bags I mean, he's, he has.
Jake:And so I felt, you know, once I got into the editing room, once I'm like looking at as a director, I'm going like I can't suppress this. This is something people should see, because this is an authentic conversation. This is this matters to people that serve. This is important, and me personally, as a filmmaker, I feel like this is a more important conversation, a more important debate, than half the things we argue about as a country. People put their lives on the line here. I even like the point of contention we have, which is regarding Syria, and I'm like, well, 3 million people have come from Syria and now live in Europe, so doing nothing's causing a problem. And then he's like, yeah, but how do you know you're back in the right one? How do you know you're not making it worse when you become the versus, the liberator, versus you know, you know coming in and dominating. So he's, you know, the conqueror. So so the debate is the debate. The debate is the debate that we're having and it was, you know, just very important.
Jake:You know, you know, that argument, that fight that spills out in in in Italy, which kind of kicked off this whole conversation is, is like that was a real moment. I mean, that's, those are real emotions. Uh, it just went sideways. He got upset. You know, he, he, he's, he's really leaning into me and I'm, I'm pushing back, uh, his wife gets involved. Yeah, and I gotta be honest with you, a lot of people love that, military spouses in particular. It's their favorite scene in the whole film.
Scott:She stood up like that's yeah, she jumped right. That was unexpected as a viewer that came out of nowhere. I'll tell you that really was like holy shit, like this ain't. This is real. This is really real for me too, scott, for me too I bet, because the look on your face, you were, you were perplexed, you were like whoa, what just happened here?
Jake:and the cameraman was brilliant.
Scott:I mean, this was brilliant and he was just filming the moment, but it came out like uh, again out of nowhere, it just kind of steadily, and that stemmed from a gentleman that came over. So you were in Italy. You're visiting your brother and his family. Can I ask you why was he in Italy?
Jake:So great question. Okay. So, joe, you know, since the first film, joe goes off. He unfortunately gets a divorce. But after that, you know, he Isaac's like look, you really wanted to stay in the military, you're going to get out, Like, why don't you try out for one of these special units? So he does, and he gets in, so he joins a special unit. Betty ends up meeting Danielle along the way and they fall in love and they get married and so he's off there. He does six deployments.
Jake:Well, as time goes on, they have one child, two children. Now she's got three children. Now she's got a child that's refusing to talk to his dad. She's got two kids crying themselves to bed. It's like she's, it's just like too much. He's home for six weeks, an entire year. This is year after year. So she just, you know, and I and and um, you see me kind of, you know, lean into her a little in the film and really, you know not let her brush over this stuff. I, you know, I was like you must not have heard about me. We're gonna have a real conversation, welcome to the family. And uh, you know, this is a documentary, so it's like doctor, no one wants to hear about how great we are.
Jake:We really got to dig to the bone and and if we're going to be of use. And so I ask her those questions and so she reveals that so the reason why they're in Italy is because she says, look, it's me, or the range of Italian, and he's like, okay, babe, I agree. You know, I've done six deployments I've put in a decade with this unit. It's been, it's been amazing, it's been amazing. I've lived my dream. But now it's not just me. And so he, he makes his exit from the unit, he transfers over and uh, but he still has time to serve and he's got all this incredible experience. So he puts in to be the Ford planning uh, senior NCO for all missions in Africa, obviously something he's incredibly trained for. Right now he's going to help them look at like, what's it going to take to do this mission after?
Jake:This is a guy who's done all the missions, been on the front lines, knows some of those territories, has deployed to Somalia and amongst other places, and so he's got all that experience to bear for planning the operation, for other soldiers and Marines and SEALs to go out there and do things. So he signs up for that, he gets the job. Now the other part of that is he never got to take a honeymoon because he was so busy as a tier one operator. And where did they want to go? Italy. So it's kind of a gift to his wife to say, look, I got a station to Italy for three years and she learns Italian and you know, they spend three years over there. Apparently it was successful for their relationship because, uh, shortly after arriving in Italy a fourth child appears and by the end of the film there's a fifth child. So apparently, you know, apparently that was, uh, apparently that was a good move as a husband and a family man.
Jake:So yeah, that's why they're in Italy. You know, there's another very personal angle here. He's named after my grandfather, joseph Edward Rademacher, who was a B-25 co-pilot bomber on the 17th successful mission over northern Italy. He gets shot down and he spends the last six months. At first they thought he was dead, missing in action, assumed dead. That's Veterans Day. That's the telegram his wife and family got. But he wasn't dead.
Jake:Italian partisans actually saved his life. They flexed, got out to the point where he was there with his bloody nose, broken nose, bleeding all over the place, sprained ankle. They grabbed him and saved his life and whisked him away, hit him, actually in the attic of a madam's house with the Nazis hot in pursuit. They didn't find him and then he ended up making a unique decision. Usually pilots would head off to Switzerland, get back in an airplane, but he really felt like he wanted to stay and work with these Italian partisans.
Jake:So he spent the last six months of the war fighting side by side with Italian partisans, doing sabotage missions, organizing, you know, drops of arms and munition, communicating back to the allies that these guys have got their stuff together and we should support them. Communicating back to the allies that these guys have got their stuff together. We should support them and you know that ended up being an integral part of the war. So in the film you see me, you know, I wanted to do an activity with every veteran which was sort of you know, symbolic and interesting and part of who they are. So with Joe we actually go to the site where our grandfather left the airplane and started his fight on the ground with the Italian partisans and I thought man Joe is literally, you know, following in his name stakes, foot, stakes, you know footsteps, with everything he's done. Let's go back to this origin story for the family and then let Joe talk about an opine upon. You know what does this mean as someone who's kind of led a very similar life?
Scott:That was the one of the things that we touched on a couple minutes ago the gentleman that came over to trace where your grandfather was, and somehow you mentioned the Iraq war and the shit hit the fan.
Jake:Scott for me. I thought it was look, you see me in the film. I get excited.
Jake:I literally, if you watch it, if you watch it a second time, watch the light bulb go off in my mind and all I was saying was so he's telling us that the Italian partisans, where they came from? Well, because in 1943, the Italians go we're done, we're out of the axis, mussolini's out of power, so all of a sudden they disband the Italian army. So they're all these trained guys, there's nobody there. And then they all of a sudden, they became the partisans. They're trained soldiers, they got weapons, they're no longer in the army, so they take up arms. And so I was like wait a minute, isn't that what we did with the Iraqi army? Like we told them you're going to have jobs, and then we just disbanded them.
Scott:That was the fuse, and then a lot of them became and he went nuts, went epileptic.
Jake:He was like look, brother, I'm making a point about something. I was on the ground with Italian not Italian with with Iraqi soldiers on the ground, embedded with them, breaking bread with them but dodging bullets with them, you know, covering their. I'm sorry, but this is like my firsthand observation and part of a bigger, you know, theme. For me, a bigger idea is that we've got to learn from our mistakes. You know I'm not here calling out or or or trying to villainize anybody, but I'm trying to say, hey look, we made this decision. It wasn't the right one. Like, can we, can we agree 20 years later it didn't work out well, like it would? Maybe we, maybe we should all think about that and maybe why it didn't work. Yeah, just so the next time. So then, if we end, or ever end up in this situation again, we, we have this collective wisdom as a society that we carry forward yeah, and there's one thing that you had going for you that there was really.
Scott:It didn't get brought up, and I was waiting for something to come up in that conversation. You weren't just a director in Hollywood or in you know, arizona or wherever. You would be talking to these soldiers, these veterans, after they got there. You had the lived experience. You were there, you breathed it, you ate with them, you slept there, you saw it all. So you had the lived experience and I was waiting for it. Like well, you don't understand, but you do understand. That was the thing you do understand, which is very valuable. When you're having an argument like that, you have something to fall back on, because military guys are notorious and women for like well, you weren't there, you don't know. I've seen that a hundred times if I've seen it a thousand times. You weren't there, so you don't know, but you were there, so you did know.
Scott:I want to move into something a little more, I guess, personal. There's that conversation with your brother, um, when he shared something very personal with it. He hadn't shared with anybody before and he's sitting there with you and he said I thought about suicide. So, as the viewer again came out of nowhere, that was like wow. But then when he said I'd never told anybody. So what was your feel as a brother? I mean, you had to be gut-wrenched over this Because you did kind of play it off at the end like hey, next time call me Like you did kind of. But when he told you that in that moment what was running through your mind? Like how did that hit you?
Jake:Well, I was in shock. I mean, I think, if you see me, yeah, I'm just in shock. Yeah, I was in shock. I didn't, I had no idea, I didn't know he was gonna open up about that. I never knew that that had even happened. No one in my family had ever been told that. Like he's literally the first person he's told. He told a couple people at work, you know, a couple of the other instructors, sniper school and and that's it. He didn't. He didn't tell anyone in our family. So the first person he's ever opening up to is me, by the river there.
Jake:And yeah, it was just absolutely shocking. You know, you know he told me he's half pound of pressure away from taking his own life. You know that it was in the gun, was in his mouth and the whole nine yards. And I just, you know, I think back and I go, man, that would have been so devastating. I had already lost one brother. If I lost a second one, I just couldn't even imagine. You know what that would have been like. And you look back at your time on earth and you go like you didn't even know that that could have been part of your story, like that would have just thrown your entire experience into another vortex. You know, and here I've been out here working with all these veterans and their families, and this is, this is something that you know I mentioned in the beginning of films alluded me. You know this, this, this troubled me is that sometimes, when I go out and work with these folks, you know, a week before I get there somebody dies by suicide. I work with the two on rains. The day before somebody jumped off the top of the barracks. I mean, it's like um, so it was really uh, it was an incredible moment. It really shocked me. You know, at the very end, I'm, I'm like, call me, I'm like I kind of hit him. You know, I was like I was a little pissed, uh, frankly, and he kind of brushes it off, but I was like um, a little upset that he hadn't reached out. Uh, you know the the, but the reality is, is is.
Jake:I just feel like Joe has given so many people a huge gift. I mean his emotional courage to open up about that. And he says why. He says, if it's, if he can save one soldier's life, then it's, then. That's why I'm telling you this is just unbelievable. And he's because of his record in the military because of what he's done. I've already seen other veterans all of a sudden be able to open up and feel comfortable. He has paved the way for that. The brothers afterwards already saved a life that we know of, maybe many, many more, but his you know.
Jake:And in the film you know, it's about a third of the way through the film and the film really turns at that moment because now the journey is going to get. You know, now my own brother is opening up this world to me and that continues as I go through the film. And so I felt like that was a really valuable piece of the movie was its ability to go into that space with people that had felt that way, with someone who had a relationship where he could ask questions, where you know, because later on with Chris McKay, I'm like, take me through that. What is that like? And I think that's a frustration that so many of us feel in this space.
Jake:You know we've lost 120,000 veterans to suicide.
Jake:We lost 6,700 of the Warren Teravets in the field killed in action.
Jake:We lost 35,000 to suicide in those 20 years. So you know, usc did a study 30% are at risk for suicide. So this is running rampant through the veteran population. So for me it's like if it's that common, it shouldn't be taboo to talk about it. We got to start to talk about it, we got to realize it's not a big deal. If you're feeling that way as a veteran, well, you're not that special. Guess what? One in three have a dark night of the soul at some point, so don't feel like you have an issue to bring it up or to talk about it.
Jake:Some of the most incredible people I know have come real close and I feel so blessed that they're now starting to talk about that and paving the way for others to talk about that, and we're going to probably save tons and tons of lives. And there's just incredible people that just come really close. But, by the grace of God, or they know what to do, or they you know they have a little bit of, or they make the phone call and the person answers the phone and talks them off the ledge, you know, and they are still here with us. And I think collectively, if all of us can know a little bit more, we can be a little more comfortable. We know what the signs are. Then we, as those who you know want to wrap our arms around our vets. We can sort of create an atmosphere and an environment where many, many lives will be saved.
Scott:I've taken a couple of those phone calls and it's hard for the person answering. Also, they come out of nowhere, literally 10 30 at night on a Wednesday, so there's no set time for it and you're never ready for it. You just have to get your shit together when the call comes. Um, and and in your case was it? Uh, like not my brother. Like I've talked to other veterans but not my brother, like they're good, did that ever? And I also. While you're thinking that, the bravery it took for him to admit that at that moment, knowing that the camera was rolling and this is going to go international, the fact that he did that at that moment, was that took just took big balls to do that, like it really did.
Scott:And that's because of you. I'm sure he did that and it was because of you, you know. So big ups to you for doing that and being there, and then him opening up to you. That's what big brothers are for, right it was.
Jake:Yeah, it was so generous of him. You know, I gotta be honest, joe was the most fervent supporter of this film within my family. Yeah, he saw the purpose of it. You know, at this point in his life he was a master sergeant, a master sergeant's lookout for the other soldiers and their families. That's their job and he takes that very seriously. So he, yeah, he's huge guts, yeah, and I just think generosity, I mean so, so generous of him to open up and share about that for the benefit of others. It still sets me back when I think about it a little bit.
Scott:Yeah, let's move on to something other than that. And we talked a little before I hit the record button. We talked a little before I hit the record button. The whole COVID thing and the timing and the just like this was literally the worst timing in the world for you. So do you want to take us through, like what you were getting ready to do and?
Jake:and all of a sudden, boom, I can't make it what yeah, I mean, look you were, oh my gosh, you were getting ready to go see your brother, right?
Scott:yeah, we were in africa, correct? Yeah? Both of my brothers both of my brothers are going to be africa line, which is the biggest military exercise of the year.
Jake:They're going to have militaries from all these different countries. My brother, Isaac, is in charge of all the military advisors across Africa. Joe is going to be there because he's part of Africa command in Italy. Beautiful, I mean. We have access everywhere. It's like what countries are we going to go into? What units do we want to film? You want a tank shooting guys jumping out of airplanes? What do you want to do? It's like a filmmaker's dream come true. Right, you know. And, by the way, you don't get there by saying hello to the military. You got to work your way up, you know. But you, you do do the sniper hide sites in Iraq and all that. You build up a little reputation and you get. You get opportunities like this, so you know, and then to put a film together and get the financing in place and all of the clearances and all that stuff, it's all set.
Jake:Like we're literally we're about to pull the trigger on plane tickets. We're going to be in Africa in like a week and it all comes crashing down, crashing down on March 14th. There's that scene in the car where I just allowed the viewers into my personal mental state because I was just so upset and you never know, you just roll the camera and just speak from your heart and you ended up going. We got to put this in. They got to know that this was not just another day in the life. And then also it's very ironic I say on March 14th, 2020, it's not going to be three months and you did say that.
Scott:You did say that I predicted it.
Jake:And it's like and there it is, and Joseph is a very similar thing about Afghanistan in 2019. And just, it was just incredible. You know this calling something before it happens, you know, and then it's not in the film as much. You see a little bit of it. You see me there, I go for Isaac's departure and stuff like that. You know we didn't want to, because the film is really about the veterans and their story then and now we really had to stay on that path.
Jake:But there is some kind of fun backstory there. You know we were the very first oh my god, just give me ptsd talking about it uh, you know, we were the first production allowed back on a military base. So when you see me filming isaac leaving for tunisia where I was supposed to go with him, by the way, but at least I get to film them leaving we were literally the first production company allowed back on a military base. That's that's what's happening there. We were the first production company allowed back into Italy at the end of the film. Wow, like the you know, the Italian when, when I got to Tunisia, that was like an act of God.
Jake:I have no idea. I mean to this day. I know what. What happened? But you know, uh, we, our embeds, have gone from everywhere in africa to completely canceled tunisia is completely canceled. Um, I, you know I finally get permission from the military. I'm working. I, you know, I've got former four-star general head of the gary sneeze foundation writing letters to the ambassador. Yeah, uh, they're like we can't support it. Okay, fine, so I'm scrambling. Eventually I get this, this, this phone call response from a local tunisian producer who's like well, wouldn't it be better if you just interviewed isaac right here?
Jake:I'm like yeah we can't get clearance. We've been working on for four months and he goes. Well, let me see what I can do. So he he pulled. You know, I don't. I think he had a relationship with the head of culture for tunisia, so he goes to him. This is a legitimate film. This is gary sinise. Executive producer. This is the film.
Jake:This is the director wants to come here to his brother. It's a 15-year project. Can we make this happen? He says yes, so tunisia's closed. You can't get in there as a tourist or business. We got like this special exemption right. This is like july or august, you know, uh, 2020. So then I get a call from the ambassador's office and she's just reading me the riot act, told you the ambassador's not supporting this.
Jake:And I'm just like shocked and I'm like I just thought you weren't going to pick me up at the airport or something like that. I was on my own, you know. So, uh, she goes look, they don't want us to know we're supporting the tunisian military. So so I tell my Tunisian producer and he's like what? But it's in the newspapers. I go could you send me a copy of that please? And he goes yeah, it's Dumont, that's an international French paper. It's like not even just the. So she sends me this Two papers. One is our secretary of defense there meeting with them. I'm like, okay, that's cool. The next is the secretary of defense hugging a soldier. As I look closer at this hug of a soldier or the shake of the hand of a soldier, I go that's my brother. That's my brother, Isaac. Not only is it in the paper, they've approved my cast, the Tunisians have put my brother in the newspaper shaking hands with the secretary of defense.
Jake:So I'm like good news, good news. The Tunisians are supporting let's go. And you know, we scrambled to get there. We are in an empty airplane on the way to Paris, In the Paris airport. We weren't in the proper hotel and what I've learned? Sometimes with bureaucracy especially, you know, you start getting into African bureaucracy, French bureaucracy, you start to go okay, okay, okay, what do we got to do? What do we got to do? I got to stay at the Golden Lion Hotel. Okay, okay, great. So people are literally getting on the airplane. Okay, my cameraman in there. I'm on all fours typing into my laptop at charles de gaulle airport to book two rooms at the golden lion tunisian hotel. I book it. I'm showing him. Look, I booked it, we're in the approved.
Scott:COVID hotel.
Jake:And he lets us on. We're the last two people on the airplane.
Scott:They said no to other people.
Jake:My other cameraman he for some reason couldn't get his special visa or whatever. He came the day later he was an Iraq vet. He's 11 years in the Navy, right E-7. Squared away guy. He comes through Tunisia. He looks like shell, shocked. It was like what do we need to do to you man? Are you okay? You know he was like you guys abandoned me. We get to Tunisia they try to quarantine our gear and my cameraman remember this is a guy that gets the country open. He, you know we get him in on the case. My cameraman's like no, no, we're, we're leaving this airport with our gear. I'll sleep next to the gear. And so I'm like he's not, we got it. We got it. We got to. We need our cameras. We're here to make a film. You can't.
Jake:But somehow we get our gear out of the Tunisian locking box or whatever. We get our cameras. Then the story doesn't end. We get in the cars there is a curfew in Tunisia.
Jake:You know, after the hours it took to get there and then get our gear, we're in this like you know little, like I don't know shuttle thing or whatever we've rented, and we get pulled over by the police three times. Fortunately I've hired security. I got a couple off-duty cops, tunisian cops, who pop out and these guys look like they're guys going to the club. You never know they were like you know detectives or whatever. They pop out, they're talking to the guys with the machine guns and eventually, you know, we get to the hotel and we get to begin work there in Tunisia. And you know, I just look back on that and go like what if we didn't make it? What if we didn't do that? You know, and, by the way, none of that's in the movie, in the film.
Scott:Were you recording all this? Is this all on film? Is this? Oh, was this? Like don't even bother, let's just get to our place.
Jake:Let's get to the golden lion, it's all I want to do pretty much because a part of he's like we can end up in jail. You know what I mean. Like we're I don't know the rules here. We're you know we're already way outside the wire here we're way beyond where anyone else is, you know?
Jake:um, so yeah, it was just. I was crazy that little walk down. Now, what you do see in the film with with isaac and I talking about tunisia and the work he's been doing, we do like a walk and talk. I think we got stopped by the police three different times because that's like the town square of tunisia. So it was like, oh my goodness, you, you know, you know they're sensitive, they, they, you know they're terrorist issues there and Libya's next door, and all that stuff.
Jake:So, so I totally get it, but I, I just couldn't imagine not making the film there. It was just too important. It's Isaac's seventh and final deployment, you know, and you, you, you, it's all worth it when you watch the film. There were, you know, on the flip side of that, I was able to rent out the third largest Roman Coliseum ever built. Yeah, that blew my mind. So I got, I got the run of the place. So I thought where, where, where, where would there be a better place to sit Isaac down and talk about, like what?
Scott:does it all mean?
Jake:Where are we going from here? So from a place where warriors have been fighting, you know, 2000 years ago, to sit them down and have that conversation. So you know, tunisia was this epic backdrop to kind of have Isaac reflect on. You know a career that spans more than two decades to talk about. You know the meaning of what's next and then to be with him, you know, even just from an emotional standpoint as a brother, to be with my brother on his seventh and final deployment and to come home with him and make that, you know, the end of the film was just so important. So I I think you know my heart was just driving me forward through all those you know hurdles and blowing up up all the obstacles and then, as the brain of a producer, some of the best producing I ever did, and you're probably the only person to ever know or ask about it, scott.
Scott:So you get through all that. I want to kind of move on a little bit. This actually just popped into my head and I would be remiss if I didn't talk about it or ask you about it. Your nephew, that was. That was a very touching part of the film. You want to talk about him a little bit, and and uh, when you were holding saying hey, this is what he drives, and the kids are like, oh, his kids love big trucks and all that, but the, uh, the story of your nephew, you want to, yeah it was, um, you know it was really.
Jake:You know it was really. You know, in Brothers at War you we reveal, you know, halfway through the film that and it's you know that that my brother Thad had died when he was 20, a month before 9-11. And, you know, overdosed on drugs what was not a service member. But you know the pain is the pain, it's the same. You know trauma is trauma. You lose your brother. It breaks your heart. Trauma is trauma. You lose your brother. It breaks your heart. And you know I was making brothers after war and he left behind a three-year-old son and his son grew up and now is about the same age 20, as his dad and he decides to join the military, following in the footsteps of his uncle. So I'm interviewing him, we film him around the motor pool and you see the video of him talking to his cousins. He's the coolest cousin out.
Jake:He's got these huge trucks and he's a mechanic on all these huge vehicles, humvees. It's really, really fascinating. But I'm sitting there doing an interview in the motor pool and all of a sudden I'm looking out and I see my brother. He's the same age Thad was when he died. He looks like him and it just I just couldn't. And then it's one of those moments where you go am I going to suppress this or am I just going to acknowledge this is how I'm feeling? And I just said to heck with it. I'm going to say the truth, this is what I'm feeling, and I say it. And then he says me too. And and then we cut to, you know, going out into the forest to talk about it, and you know that was just such an incredible experience. You know he had been, you know, wondering all those years. You know, was I not worth it to make better choices? And um, and you see my response that I get pretty emotional, um, and open up and talk, and and I meant what I you know, we are the sum of our choices and you've made better choices than him and he'd be very proud of you, how you turned out. And I just feel like these moments are important because hopefully they'll spark other moments and other families to have these conversations. You know, quentin's not the only soldier, the only man to ever feel that way, whose father is no longer there. I've had talked to other soldiers, actually, who feel the exact same way, and so I think it's. You know, I know this is a very personal story to myself and my nephew and my family, but I think sometimes, you know, the more truthful and human and honest you get, the more other people see themselves in that moment and it resonates with them, it has value to them. Um, it was.
Jake:There were other moments in making the film that really touched my heart. Chris mckay touched my heart, um, a big a ton. But that moment, you know you could see, I I did tear up. You know I did emotion overcame me because that moment, you know you could see, I did tear up. You know I did emotion overcame me because it was just, you know, maybe in some ways I made these films because of my brother.
Jake:You know, my brother died and I really learned what a brother is worth and that's why, when my brothers told me the truth wasn't coming home, it it, it hurt me so much and I wanted to do something about it. You know, as their older brother, um, to look out for them, to love them, to care for them and also to make sure that their children, should something happen, knew who their fathers were and what their values were and what they believed in and why they made these sacrifices and why they took these risks. It wasn't for themselves, it was for others. They're trying to help other people, and so I feel like I.
Jake:You know we can't change what happens in life sometimes, and I would trade these two films to have my brother walk through the door, but we don't get to make that choice. In life, sometimes, bad things happen and we're the ones left behind and we've got to make a choice of what we do with it. And what I chose to do is try to turn it into something positive, Try to learn from it and try to make it better for my own brothers. And the reason I made a film was because I thought maybe my family's not the only one that's ever gone through something like this and just maybe, going on this journey, there's going to be some you know, elixir. There's going to be something that can help others, and I didn't know it when I started this project.
Jake:But now I know you know some of that's post-traumatic, that's post-traumatic growth, right, the learning like what's really important in life and empathy for others and bigger picture, and I want our veterans and other folks who've experienced trauma and their families to know.
Jake:You know you don't want to hide from these things, you don't want to bury them. You actually want to lean into them, you want to journal about them, you want to communicate about them, you want to find a way to process these experiences because if you do, as my brother Isaac once said, the smell of cut grass laying next to his wife in bed, he's like these might be simple things but you just can't understand the flavor. You know, and I want people who experienced tough things to be able to process those experiences so they don't, they don't, they don't define them, they don't pull them back forever. It always be a a deeper color in the tapestry of your story, but you also are able to appreciate things in a whole new way and have a whole new perspective that you can't have without going through that and I want everyone to get to that place and to be not just survive but to thrive absolutely um the cutting back and forth.
Scott:Again, this just uh popped into my head that the young joe, the young isaac and now the seasoned veterans they're not veterans per se, but seasoned soldiers Mm-hmm, is an absolute. Like you just kind of look. You're like wow, like look at them Like they were just kids and we always say this, right, when we get to a certain age they're just kids.
Scott:And they were literally just kids and something. I was at an event this morning and a nurse that was in Vietnam, in country, at one of the hottest spots. She was asked a question and someone said well, how old are you? She said I was 22. She said I was 22, but I was working on kids that were 18, 19. She said we were all kids and that's no different than going over to the desert.
Scott:They're just kids, they're all just kids, which that really put perspective on it, like I'd never really had it presented that way before and to think of that. And so then you see the, the, the cutbacks of your brothers. They're just kids, you know, and it was to see what they turned out to be, and and you get to see it more, was you can? I don't even know if you could fill in those blanks, right, but that was just something I just thought of and it was. It's just the watching that transformation, seeing it jump back and forth. So then the reconnections right Now you're going to go back and you went to visit these kids from Brothers at War, the first movie, and there was 10 of them, I believe.
Jake:Correct, that's correct, yeah, two brothers and 10 friends I made 10 friends.
Scott:That was kind of like a planes, trains and automobiles thing. Like you were just now, I'm gonna drive, I'm driving everywhere. Right, because of covid, right, you?
Jake:didn't want to chance anything.
Scott:So what is what's the one standout? And they're all great men and women. And there is the one woman in there and I want to touch on that for a second. When she said, when she was talking about the fact that she's busting her ass just like everybody else, and that one troop said, ah, this place would be a better place if there were more pretty girls like you, she was like what the fuck like? And I, I know, I I knew young women like that that would just like dog handlers.
Scott:I was a dog handler for 10 years and if you're a female dog handler, you're in a real alpha male situation. You got to keep up and they did, and they did great, but they were still. They were still females, they were still women and but you didn't, you didn't go that route with them. You could treat them just like they wanted to be treated. But that was when she said that she was like that's the one thing that just set her off, no matter what everybody else said, because I know she was around and you know she was around a lot of shit talking. But the one thing that set her off, no matter what everybody else said, because I know she was around, and you know she was around a lot of shit talking, but the one thing that set her off right was that which and she still remembered it all those years later.
Scott:You know, up to this, when you end it, she's like that's the one, like what the really did. You just say that to me. There's always one in the crowd. I can tell you that there's more than one usually. But so the revisiting, what was that like? What was the process to that? Yeah, mapped it out. I'm going to go see this person, this person, this person Was there any particular order, for any particular reason, or it just happened to be?
Jake:Well, you know, those are, those are great questions, you know, first of all, so educational, so enlightening. I mean I you can see my response just listening to her. You know I'm really sort of taken aback and also just, but you know, those are one of those moments where you feel like this is valuable you know, like I'm she's opening up.
Jake:You could cause she gets emotional, you know, and truthful and honest. Like you said, this is something that she's been holding onto for years and kind of needs to get off her chest. And, um, you know, that was an incredible moment, um, and there were, there were a ton of good. You know a ton of incredible moments. You know, gunner opening up. You know, before the moment, before you know, what you see in the film was.
Jake:I asked him about that moment when he's on one knee caressing the face of a wounded Iraqi soldier, and he's just like. He's like yeah, yeah, the bullets were flying blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I was like I was there and for me, when you touch the face of that Iraqi soldier, I thought that was grace on earth. It blew me away, the kindness, the intimacy, how you know. And he, then he gets real and he looks down and he starts to say, yeah, that's intimate, intimate connection. You have another man and it hurts. And he got really truthful and real and he said he'd just never really gone there before, um, and a couple of months after I'd been there to visit him, he, he, he texted me and said look, thank you for coming. It really helped, really helped me to open up and talk about all these things.
Jake:So, you know, to me that's, you know, that was just such, that was such an incredible piece of the entire journey. Yeah, looking back at them, you know, in these moments, like you said, we're kids. You know, I look back and, joe, you know, some of these conversations, I, you know, to support the conversations in the modern day, we'd been talking about the war for 15 years. We were talking about it when he was 19 and I'm 29. And here we are, years later and he is, like you said, a seasoned senior soldier and I'm somebody who's now, you know, I'm not the young, 28, 29 year old in his dorm room anymore.
Jake:You know going around the desert again yeah, I've been to the desert, you know, and I would go again. I've gone three times actually went back to Baghdad again and. I've been around the world and I'm like, yeah, uh, but you know, so it's. It was just so interesting to see this, this, this, this theme, this conversation, go through all these years, you know.
Scott:There was a moment when you asked pretty much that same question to one of the veterans. You said what is the moment that you remember the most? And he said right now. Right now is the moment which your face was like. I think your response was I'm never at a loss of words, so congratulations.
Jake:Yeah, you know, we trim that real, we trim that response down because I, you know it was that blew me away. You know Chris basically saying you know, I asked him what's his most memorable moment of the last you know 20 years, what's what's meant the most to him? And he said this moment, right here, right now. It's nice to know that people still care. Yeah, you know, that's that's sort of my entire mission behind the entire film is to let vets know we still care, we, that's sort of my entire mission behind the entire film is to let vets know we still care, we still care, care about you, we care about what's going on with you, we care about what you did for us and we want to be there for you as you take your next footsteps.
Jake:And Chris is such a great guy, such a beautiful, beautiful person, and when he said that to me it just really knocked me out. You know, I really was at a complete loss for words. I didn't see that coming and I think it's really you know, if I take a step back from it, it's really an important moment for us as a society. Like, how important is it for us if that's his favorite moment, to know someone still cares to make sure that our veterans from the war on terror, some of which deployed up to 13 times that they know we still care.
Scott:We care. Yeah, and I noticed in those interviews and I touched on it before we came on the air One of them mentioned purpose. They found their purpose, which is not easy to find, and especially somebody with PTSD or traumatic brain injury, and they're fighting through that. That's their fight, that's their struggle. But when they find their purpose, it changes everything. Ptsd never goes away, traumatic brain injury is never going to go away. But when you have purpose or belonging, which they have, a belonging that's each other and you're part of that and the connection, it makes a difference. It makes a huge difference. So the connection, how many of these uh, the 10, keep in touch? Do you know? Like, do they have reunions? Or do they ever like, oh, I I talked to to joe and oh, I haven't talked to him in years, like, how, how does that work between them? But they all were part of a movie.
Jake:They, they have that, that thing in common, a big thing in common two movies yeah, you know, the gary sneeze foundation was very, uh, generous and gary sneeze himself said, you know, when forrest gump came out he got to see it first. Yeah, you know, he had been. He'd really, you know know, been very, you know, put himself on the line there to do Lieutenant Dan, and then they shared it with the rest of the film the world. So he was really grateful. So he actually arranged for them to all come to Nashville see the headquarters of the Gary Sneese Foundation and then we all watched the film privately together there. So that was wonderful. They all got to see the film before the rest of the world and we went out and talked afterwards and then they also had an opportunity to go see it for the world premiere. It won best documentary audience choice award at the San Diego international film festival. So they all got to see that and walk the red carpet and get photos together and those were both such fun events and experiences for them to reconnect. Sometimes, for it was the first time they'd seen each other in years, or maybe since sammy's uh funeral one of one of the soldiers I he died and so they all went to his funeral. So they'd seen each other then. But it'd been years and I think um it.
Jake:You know I, I gained so so much personally by reconnecting with these folks and doing a little bit of a reunion. I learned, I mean I learned from them, I grew from them. I came into this film a little bit broken. I left it almost with a new purpose myself and you know I, I, I would, I would really encourage people to reconnect, put together a reunion with the folks they served overseas. You know you said a couple of really important things. You said connection, community.
Jake:you know and belonging and purpose, purpose, right. So one of the things of when you're processing post-traumatic stress, you got to lean into it, process it, talk about these experiences with someone that you trust, and maybe even a professional to kind of help you. You know, really unpack something. That's one thing and that relieves pressure, but another thing and where the real gift comes from is when you start to cast the blinds into the future and you start thinking about what would I like to do next, what would be a fun thing to do, like my case, go to Disneyland with my kids. Or go camp out on my brother's new land and let my you know the cousins all play with each other and sit around the campfire. You know, whatever that is, these things are what really transform your life and give it a new purpose, a new value. But purpose is something really important.
Jake:Sometimes vets and this is runs throughout the film Even even Ben gives us advice at the end. You know, sometimes veterans go well, well, I'm an infantry trained guy, I'll go do security. Hey, if you want to do security and that's what lights your fire you do it. A third of the police officers in this country are veterans. A lot of the firefighters are Great. If that's what gets you up in the morning and you want to continue on, go do that. But don't do it if it's the path of least resistance and your heart is taking you somewhere else. One thing I've learned from this project is and it's the advice I give to veterans is what do you want to do Inside your heart? What do you really want to do? And making this film made me a better brother for my own brothers, because in the film they're sort of at the end of the road. One's a master sergeant, one's a lieutenant colonel. He's not going to make colonel, he reveals. And so when it came time for them to figure out what's next with Joe, I said get a piece of paper out and write down one to ten, what do you want to do? And if he hadn't have done that, he would have gone to seven and been unhappy because it was the easiest path.
Jake:Klaus will get them over there in, you know, doing the personal finance thing. No One I want to be an investment banker. Well, I can't move to New York because your wife's at Duke for nursing. Number two private equity. Maybe if you could move to Chicago, but you really got to do commercial lending. First Number three, commercial lending. By God, he got a job in commercial lending. He loved it. He's got an MBA, he thinks it's interesting and he got promoted recently. He's a relationship banker.
Scott:He got a promotion.
Jake:He's a vice president now, for god's sakes, okay, joe, joe the guy three syllables is out there representing the biggest bank in tennessee. Now I mean, are you kidding me? He's analyzing business spreadsheets, this kid. So you know who knew, you know like and he likes it, he likes it. So it's. It's, that's the thing. And with isaac I was like you know he could have gone anywhere. He was getting offers to run security for small countries I was thinking of that when he said he didn't get his promotion and that's it.
Scott:I was like oh he's corporate america are you kidding me? He's got his mba. He's got you write his ticket anywhere.
Jake:Could you know what he's doing? Because I said to him I said, isaac, what makes you happy? Tell me what makes you happy. He likes being outdoors. He likes it's not for me. I mean I'll go do it if you need help, but it's not what I want to do every day. But he loves it. So he started his own business. He's doing forestry management, he's doing landscaping, he's building fences, you name it. He's got and I mean this guy's got like power tools you wouldn't believe. I mean he's got like a bulldozer.
Jake:He's got all kinds of crazy stuff, you know and he's happier than a pig and shit.
Jake:You know he's out there, you know plowing through land and he's, he's overjoyed. And the point is that's what makes him happy. He likes being outside, he likes transforming the earth he's, and so he started a business to do it. He he'd been taking orders for for two decades. He wanted to be his own boss and he's thriving. He's thriving. He's like backed up.
Jake:You know, he found a niche in charlottesville. His his final job in the military he was he ran rotzi for the University of Virginia Liberty University. So he probably trained a couple thousand first lieutenants in the military, passing on decades of experience, and then loved the area so they decided to stay there. Jenny got her degree in nursing, so she's a nurse at the University of Virginia Hospital and he's out there doing all of projects in that area with his business. And and then he and Joe Joe says at the end of the film he has a dream uh, to raise grapes and wine. So guess what? He, isaac and Klaus bought a 400 acres just outside of Charlottesville in Virginia and 16 of those acres are perfect for growing vines. Wow, and that's where they. They're going to have three houses out there. They want their kids to be able to grow up and play with one another that's awesome.
Scott:Yeah, um, couple things you mentioned. Uh, we were talking about purpose and I and I I just so I'm I'm 61. I turned 61 last december and it dawned on me that two things have happened in my life. At 20, I found my calling, and my calling was working with dogs 10 years in the air force security police, 22 years us customs and border protection in mi and Fort Lauderdale. Working a drug dog, anti-terrorism, anti-smuggling. That was my calling.
Scott:A lot of people confuse the two. They think it's the same thing. At 60, I found my purpose. My purpose is to help veterans and it's been an amazing journey already In the one year that I've nonprofits and just being in the veteran space and seeing everything that I see and talking and helping and just doing as much as I can. That's my for the rest of my life. That's my purpose in life is to, and I was fortunate enough to retire in 2019. So to find my calling at 20 and my purpose at 60 was quite like. I took a step back and looked at everything. I said this is amazing. I had enough self-awareness to understand that, that I am a blessed man to be able to do that and find that and veterans has been it and you also said reunions.
Scott:So from 87 to 89 my first base was clock air force base in the philippines. Now I was in it was not a wartime environment but that was the hottest spot in the whole dod. They killed some Americans outside base. So we were in a threat con bravo, as they said constantly, six days on, one day off, k-9 only went out at night. It really became a brotherhood. So as we all moved on for the last, I think, 27 years, at least 10 of us a year get together and we stay in and we get together.
Scott:And one of the veterans mentioned this he mentioned during your movie said something about you will never find a better person than the person you were stationed with. Or he said some of the best people I met were the people I was stationed with Got. He said some of the best people I met were the people I was stationed with Got out, worked in the civilian world and I wish I remembered his exact wording. But he was absolutely 100% correct and that's why we get together every year and we dog each other every year and we tell the same stories every year. We're all in our late 50s, early 60s telling the same stories, but we still do stories every year. We're all in our late 50s, early 60s telling the same stories, but we still do it every year.
Scott:And it's a and the older we get, the more we really start to appreciate it. So you're right, those are valuable, valuable moments, those three days but it feels like 10 sometimes, uh, that you get together with those guys and women that you bonded with when you were just a kid, right, that's very important, I think, and I think military members should have more. But I noticed one thing when you're overseas, you build a bond. People that are stateside military it could be the Air Force Army military it could be the air force army they they don't have as big a bond as you do. When you're overseas and you're serving overseas and you're over there for a year, two years, three years or you know whatever situation you're in stateside, I never see that. Now I could be wrong, but there's something about being in a foreign country with your friends who you can't stand that guy. But as you get older you're like, I kind of like him.
Jake:I like that person.
Scott:And it rang true in our little reunion thing. So I want to ask you one last question, and I hope I'm not being too personal. So you're the guy at the other end of the microphone, you're the guy that's out there talking to these people and seeing it and just being the sponge for it, right it? And just being the sponge for it, right? How has it affected your mental health, being with those people and then seeing them? You've seen it, all you know.
Scott:But you you've watched these kids grow up and you've and you've grown up and you've seen the trauma and the and the troubles and the. You've seen the trauma and the troubles. You've seen the worst of it and you've seen the best of it. How has it affected you? I'm just going to say it. That's almost prime territory for PTSD in itself and again, I hope I'm not being too personal with this, but I just thought about that. I'm like you have to be there and just listen. Right Now I don't know what goes on behind the. You know when the camera's not rolling, but I can't think that it's that much different. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Jake:Yeah, no, it's a great question, I think. You know. You said calling and purpose. You know the calling for me was being a storyteller. The purpose really came through with this project, the purpose of telling the story of these folks on the front lines so that people at home could learn more about them in their living rooms. The purpose became using this as a conduit for them to open up and talk to themselves and talk to each other.
Jake:And you know, look, when I was in Iraq, I had bullets going across the lens of my camera. I had, you know, I was filming people that had tragically wounded, you know, jaws messed up and legs messed up. And a week later I was in Beverly Hills. You know, talk about a culture shock. And what helped me was I had to watch my own combat footage. And so that night I had nightmares and my brain did loop-de-loops and my I talked to. I you know two. A couple of things helped me. I journaled. That's why I teach journaling to vets. Yeah, uh, my brother, isaac, called me, said you know how's it going? Isaac had obviously been in a decent amount of combat and so he talked me through that. And he talked to me. You know I said yeah, I went to go see that movie about snipers, yeah.
Scott:That wasn't a good idea.
Jake:Too much stimulation too soon. You know, I was like, yeah, that was really messed up. I was out with snipers, I'm watching a movie. That's too much, too soon. Um, you know, he just talked me through the hyper, the hyper vigilance, all the things to expect, um, and so that was super helpful to know. Like this is normal.
Jake:Um, the other thing I did was I had to talk to people who were not veterans my producing partner, my editor and explain to them what was going on in Iraq. I had to talk through all of this experience and it was difficult, but it forced me to communicate and I didn't know it then, but I was processing my experiences. So that was one part. Other thing you asked is about talking to them about these hard stories, them about these hard stories. I have learned since making the film that asking you about the toughest moment in your life which I need to do as a storyteller In the moment you can be in pain, in the moment you can cry, in the moment you can open up about this thing and it can be a little traumatic for you and for me. But I'm also, I know now, helping you make sense of that. I'm helping you tell your story and I've had the blessing to work with. You know, the very first workshop I did, dr Scott Williams was there. He was a psychiatrist for the big red one and just come back Now he's running research at Walter Reed, and three of my trainers that are veterans two of them have doctorates of social work. I have a psych D that's working with me. So now the blessing of the Gary Sinise Foundation started to sponsor all these workshops in 2019 was they wanted me to build a team around myself, and so my team has got the doctorates and the psych Ds and all that, and so I've learned during the course of doing this some things I can do, and so I've learned during the course of doing this some things I can do.
Jake:So if a veteran opens up about something, you might hear part of that story in the of it, or give them some advice or talk about next steps they can take. Do you know what I mean? And oftentimes that doesn't make the film, but I just feel like that. That. That is sort of part of my duty, you know, and then it makes me feel good. It helps, like you said about purpose, if, if I know that someone opening up and them getting a little bit emotional, while it might hurt my heart a little bit in the moment to hear it, but if I know this is actually really helpful for them, then it can change how I take that in. And so, as a filmmaker as I've been doing this for a couple of decades, as I've gotten to this phase of it, I know how to be helpful. I know how to record the moment for the film and have them tell their story, but I know that can also be a part of their healing and then kind of how to talk through that with them a little bit more afterwards. So that's helped a lot.
Jake:But the second part of it is I've been doing these seminars and workshops and there was a time in 2011 and 2012 where I was just every week working with thousands of soldiers and Marines and airmen, people coming back talking about the trauma, and it was starting to affect me. I was probably getting what they call, you know, secondary post-traumatic stress or, you know, caregivers fatigue, and I talked to a chaplain and he said you know I was like how are you doing this? Like how do you do this, how do you do this? I mean, I'm like I'm getting, like I'm getting chewed up here. I want to help. I love these guys, but it's you know, it's affecting me and you know he said look, I remember a couple of things. It's their trauma, it's not mine, so I don't need to absorb that for them. That doesn't help them. What they need is me to listen and to be there and maybe if you have a piece of insight, you can offer it. But them being there for them to talk, let them. It's theirs. So that sort of helps, so that sort of helps.
Jake:Secondly, he said I try to plan something that I really am going to look forward to. You know, after working with a bunch of vets or talking about so maybe it's going to dinner with my lady. So I do that. Now I have things I look forward to. I'll go and work with a unit that's been hard hit or they've had a few suicides. We go in, we know we're making a difference, so I know we're there to help, we're there to make sense of it right.
Jake:So, as people unpack these things and it's a tremendous honor to have someone talk about something they're struggling with you know and hold space for them and to listen and let them know hey, I got you, we're good, it's okay, I can handle it. And to have them kind of walk through that, but then also to be able to offer them something, some insight, a way to process it, a way to take a step forward, is of incredible value. And when you, when you're, when you're living that purpose, it reframes how you're a conduit for that. And then for the final thing I'll just say is, ironically, you know, I had this incredibly difficult international custody battle for my own children right, which lasted about two years, wiped me out and, interestingly enough, everything I teach in the workshop, some of the things we've been talking about here today communication, community journaling that's how I processed everything I went through over, or that's how I processed the death of my brother, the death of my brother.
Jake:But I actually needed some therapy for, um, you know, that international custody battle for my children, which had a happy ending. My kids are here. I dropped them off at school this morning. I in quotes one no one wins in a divorce. Just try to survive and get to a point where you can, you can move on. Uh, but, like you know, it had a happy ending.
Jake:But I actually had to go talk to a therapist and kind of unpack some of that stuff because I didn't have time to process it at the time and so I just want to share that with your listeners. That, like, the purpose of therapy is to go back in time and maybe something you didn't have time to unpack in the moment it can get put in the filing cabinet a little left up and you got to go pull it out and then sometimes you work through with a pro. But the purpose of that is, you know they can sort of untangle that you might have learned, you might have affected your belief system a little, and as you unpack that it's changed my life. Now I've got a wonderful woman in my life. She's actually a master sergeant in the Air Force, so she keeps me on my P's and Q's, let me tell you. But she's a wonderful person.
Jake:No, I'm in a whole new phase in my life and I'm able to then share some of those insights and things with our veterans and their families, and so I just share that with everybody that's listening, because you never know what experience it is that's just going to get caught in your subconscious a little sideways, and don't be afraid to go.
Jake:And here's the other thing is, you've got to find someone you trust, someone that you have rapport with and someone who maybe is has a specialty that dovetails with the thing you need to kind of unravel and not you unravel.
Jake:And so that's also circling back to your original question. Have you know uh, you know my own psyche that once in a while if somebody brings something up in an interview or some in a seminar or workshop or I get a curve ball, I can turn to her and say, hey, this came up and I want to talk about it, maybe to relieve a little pressure or stress internally, but also so that I'm there to best serve someone if it comes up again. And that's something to think about. If you work on this, if you hold space for people, if you learn things that can help, that's a muscle that grows, and the next time you're in that situation you're better prepared to handle it, you're better prepared to help them through it. And Gary Sneese said something to me. He said maybe the way to heal a broken heart is to help someone else.
Scott:Yeah, that's a great way to end this conversation. Absolutely Makes all the sense in the world. Yes, do you have anything in the works right now, anything in the future, any more brilliant documentaries coming up, or are you just kind of?
Jake:you know I I am working on a couple of projects. You know, making this film, like you said, about calling, really reaffirmed for me that it's a calling and it's something I really enjoyed, even even the difficult parts, and I really love the storytelling. I love seeing an audience response, I love the conversations it starts. Uh, it's a huge challenge but it's a lot of fun, and so I do have probably about three projects in the in the mix right now that I'm kind of developing and writing. What one is? You know? Just crazy sitcom idea.
Jake:One of my story editors came to me with another is uh, looking at uh pows from vietnam. Um, I've got the life rights to, to someone that I've been working with him, which has been an incredible opportunity and journey for growth. Um, and then I may make a film about my, my, my, you know, international custody battle, because I think there's there's some lessons in there, uh, that I learned and that others could learn. Um, you know, especially men and the importance of fatherhood and and holding onto that and and and fighting for that sometimes to make sure that you stay in your children's lives and that you know so much I think of your meaning as a man, as a father is through being able to pass on those lessons to the next generation and be there for them and be a resource for them. And mothers absolutely have an important role, but fathers do as well. So I think there's something to explore there absolutely have an important role, but fathers do as well. So I think there's a there's something to explore there. I think something that I'm kind of finding in my work that I want to carry forward with is I really want my films and my storytelling to be, you know, have an element of helping other people have, an element of them learning something that they can apply to their own lives.
Jake:Um, you know, what immediately is happening is brothers after wars being released. We're, we're, we're, you know. So it's, it's super exciting. People can watch it in their own homes, they can share it with others. We also are kicking off an impact campaign. So we're about to set off on a journey We've already set off, in fact on a journey where Gary sneeze foundation is sponsoring 40 workshops and seminars around the country this year. If you're interested in that, shoot us an email info brothersafterwarcom or you can come online and let us know you're interested in coming to your city or see where it's coming. Uh, we did the very first one of those uh for the dav. So california dv one of my trainers, noel apana, received the disabled veteran of the year award for his service to his fellow brothers and sisters and then he and I uh shared the movie with about 200 DAV members and their families. And then we did the two-hour seminar, the journaling, the group discussion. We had guys say it's the second time I've ever shared this and it's like what.
Jake:In this moment. This is the second time you've ever shared this. And then there was one guy who opened up and his brother was in Vietnam. It was just incredible. And then some of them couldn't help themselves, like in the middle of the seminar which is about them, they'd ask me questions about the film. They'd be like Jake, I loved Brothers After War. I loved the film. Can I ask you a question about it? Or you know what?
Scott:I mean.
Jake:I'd be like sure, okay, Sure, Let me answer your question. Okay, now let's get back to the conversation about you. I was so touched by that, Scott, I was like you know. I must have done something right. It's a great film.
Scott:It's a great film. It really is. It really is. It was very well done, jake. It helped me. It helped me. I learned a couple of things in there how to process things, and I paid attention to some of the veterans and it helped me. I'm not just saying that because again, you're right in front of me. I'm not that kind of person. It helped me. It's a great film. I am going to promote the hell out of it in South Florida and all the veterans that I know and the nonprofits that I know. I am definitely going to do my best to to to push that. Well, I will push that. That is my best right.
Scott:Um, jake, thank you very much for coming on a fascinating, amazing movie. I can't wait to watch the first one. Like I said, although it was cut back, you know and forth, and it filled in the blanks. Um, as we talked about before, I'm going to watch it. Now I have an idea and now I'm going to watch it in a totally different perspective of knowing the outcome of these things. So I look forward to that. Jake, if there's anything I can ever do for you in South Florida, please reach out to me via my email. I can't thank you enough for coming on.
Scott:This was a great, great interview, great conversation. You are a great big brother and your brothers are blessed to have you as their big brother, and I don't know what else to say after that. That's the greatest compliment I could ever give you You're a great big brother and that's. That's a. That's a lot. There's a lot of brothers out there that aren't so great, but with with that, uh, stick around, I'm going to do the outro and then I'll talk to you for a second afterwards. So well, there you go. We built another bridge today. Uh, this one was a very, very, uh, uh, interesting, uh and and uh, and. Just, you got to watch the film. You got to see the movie Brothers After War. Watch Brothers at War when you can, and I highly suggest it. And well, I don't even know what to say. I'm going to quote Jake from his own movie. I don't even know what to say. I'm going to quote Jake from his own movie, and I'm usually not speechless, but congratulations, jake. And with that I will see everybody and you'll hear me next week.
